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Post by cadmus on Dec 2, 2007 0:15:28 GMT -5
*Could Camille be more skilled a criminal if she really tried? Any KP villain could be a more skilled villain if they tried. Duh!!! Uh Ron was the one who made out Adrena Lynn to be a fake, not Kim. And besides what Ron did to Adrena Lynn wasn't illegal, unlike what Adrena Lynn did after she became a fraud, she took it upon herself to become a criminal.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 2, 2007 0:33:45 GMT -5
"I'm not bashing anyone here! All I'm saying is that I simply choose not to take the creators words as canon to the show. To me, if it's not in an actual episode, it's not canon." I agree. Which is why I'm sorry to say there really isn't one "right" answer to most of these questions. The series belongs to the fans to spin any way they want now. Also, as long as I'm being somewhat of a wet blanket, we REALLY don't see a chance of more episodes at this point, so all of this conjecture on who would do these non-existant episodes is a bit silly. Wait a second, I'm a little confused. Are you saying that your guy's intent was not to have Kim and Ron end up in the same college? Besides not getting an on screen payoff to Graduation after 40 minutes of build up, that's something that's bugged me to no end, the VIP's all seem to have their own opinion on how Kim and Ron's futures turn out. Some people (like Steve) feel Kim and Ron ending up in the same college is most appropriate, and should be canon. Others are more comfortable leaving it up to the fans to interpret the future. This is the option I hate the most, because it doesn't add anything concrete to the series at all, and feels like a bad attempt at giving every single fan wish fulfillment(which is all fan fiction is, to me anyways) instead of something from the creators with their stamp of approval. Long story short, was it EVER the original intention from the VIP's that Kim and Ron end up in the same college?
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 2, 2007 12:05:10 GMT -5
You could say that some of the VIPs wanted them to end up in the same college, and others not, and so they left it open 'cause they couldn't decide.
Well, it's only a theory...
But hey, some of us actually like ambiguity, you know? As long as there's question without answer, there's room for the fans to explore, and that makes the fandom lives longer. Like Tetsuya Nomura said, "with speculation, players can still be happy with a game even after it becomes old." In this case, being a cartoon show.
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Post by Luke Danger on Dec 2, 2007 17:57:31 GMT -5
Alexlayer, that is real true.
Also, they left no implication of EXACTLY WHAT Kim and Ron do, so that means one writer will have Ron go Zorpox while another has Kim making Zorpox look nice.
That's the beauty of ambiguity to fanfic authors who try to preserve continuity.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 3, 2007 0:22:53 GMT -5
Keep in mind that fan fic writers only cover a VERY small portion of KP's fanbase. What about the rest of the fans who AREN'T fans of fan fiction? Don't you think those fans deserve better?
Besides, the only fans that seem to be praising the "ambiguity" of the ending are fan fic writers. Do you see any non fan fic writers praising the ending?
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Post by yvj on Dec 3, 2007 21:08:32 GMT -5
Keep in mind that fan fic writers only cover a VERY small portion of KP's fanbase. What about the rest of the fans who AREN'T fans of fan fiction? Don't you think those fans deserve better? Besides, the only fans that seem to be praising the "ambiguity" of the ending are fan fic writers. Do you see any non fan fic writers praising the ending? I somewhat agree with cadmus here, and I'm a fanfic writer. Many writers will change things anyway to fit their interpretations, or what they really want to see. So technically we don't need ambiguity. So if Kim and Ron did go to the same college, fanfic writers could just have had the college blow up after the first semester. Or have Kim transfer out. And Cadmus take this for what its worth. Bob Schooley did not make his comments (days after Steve's comments) until after a few anti D/S folk and others created an uproar over how they felt cheated. After that none of the creators gave any real specific answers to anything. Before that Steve and others gave affirmation that they would and said that the only reason that they didn't have them show up at the same college was because of Disney thinking kids wouldn't relate. Before the great anti D/S uprising of 07 Creators: Yea they end up at the same college After the great anti D/S uprising of 07 (that had Steve drop in an say this is the story we wanted to tell)Creators: Whatever you want to happen, happens So maybe you can find some answers from that.
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Post by Luke Danger on Dec 3, 2007 21:12:55 GMT -5
Keep in mind that fan fic writers only cover a VERY small portion of KP's fanbase. What about the rest of the fans who AREN'T fans of fan fiction? Don't you think those fans deserve better? Besides, the only fans that seem to be praising the "ambiguity" of the ending are fan fic writers. Do you see any non fan fic writers praising the ending? I somewhat agree with cadmus here, and I'm a fanfic writer. Many writers will change things anyway to fit their interpretations, or what they really want to see. So technically we don't need ambiguity. So if Kim and Ron did go to the same college, fanfic writers could just have had the college blow up after the first semester. Or have Kim transfer out. And Cadmus take this for what its worth. Bob Schooley did not make his comments (days after Steve's comments) until after a few anti D/S folk and others created an uproar over how they felt cheated. After that none of the creators gave any real specific answers to anything. Before that Steve and others gave affirmation that they would and said that the only reason that they didn't have them show up at the same college was because of Disney thinking kids wouldn't relate. Before the great anti D/S uprising of 07 Creators: Yea they end up at the same college After the great anti D/S uprising of 07 (that had Steve drop in an say this is the story we wanted to tell)Creators: Whatever you want to happen, happens The anti D/S uprising comment was more refering to the fan writers who wanted to either go D/S but not really damage cannon.
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Post by yvj on Dec 3, 2007 21:26:07 GMT -5
I somewhat agree with cadmus here, and I'm a fanfic writer. Many writers will change things anyway to fit their interpretations, or what they really want to see. So technically we don't need ambiguity. So if Kim and Ron did go to the same college, fanfic writers could just have had the college blow up after the first semester. Or have Kim transfer out. And Cadmus take this for what its worth. Bob Schooley did not make his comments (days after Steve's comments) until after a few anti D/S folk and others created an uproar over how they felt cheated. After that none of the creators gave any real specific answers to anything. Before that Steve and others gave affirmation that they would and said that the only reason that they didn't have them show up at the same college was because of Disney thinking kids wouldn't relate. Before the great anti D/S uprising of 07 Creators: Yea they end up at the same college After the great anti D/S uprising of 07 (that had Steve drop in an say this is the story we wanted to tell)Creators: Whatever you want to happen, happens The anti D/S uprising comment was more refering to the fan writers who wanted to either go D/S but not really damage cannon. Um can you explain what you mean here?
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Post by Luke Danger on Dec 4, 2007 16:37:43 GMT -5
The anti D/S uprising comment was more refering to the fan writers who wanted to either go D/S but not really damage cannon. Um can you explain what you mean here? Sorry, I had to rush it. Basically, when we were concerned with what Collage Kim and Ron were going to, they said they'd still be together. My guess is the anti-D/S fans thought they ment Dr. D and Shego were offically a couple. The VIPs then said, regarding D/S: You're free to write/imagine it as you want to. Now, this means, hey, you don't got to be a fanfic writer to have a oppion of where Kim and Ron go after the finale. You can still have a oppinion and imagination about what happens afterwords.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 5, 2007 22:16:37 GMT -5
Well, like Luke said, point this out: Ambiguity is NOT just for fanfiction writers. Part of the reason for which KP is such a great show is because it makes the fans think about it, wonder about the character’s life and unanswered question, like Shego’s past or how Drakken turned blue. If the writer and authors would answer every of these things, then the series wouldn’t make fans want to watch episode after episode in hopes to get this questions answered. But if the writers are really smart enough, then they must know which things they shouldn’t answer. Heck, the epilogue itself was like they were saying: “No, we are NOT gonna tell you how he did turn blue”.
Overall people, the thing is simple: Ambiguity SELLS!
And at any rate, our stance is the same. If Kim and Ron going to the same college shouldn’t matter because fanfic writers can always write it differently, then the same thing is if Kim and Ron don’t go to college together, ‘cause fanfic writers can always write them going to the same one. And in the end, the show itself never confirmed it. Same things applies with the VIP’s words. If Bob said his comments because of the D/S rant, then in the same vein Steve’s answer could have been what he thought the fans wanted to hear. Now, I’m not disregarding anyone’s words here, just making points. And if my memory’s right, for one, I remember Steve said that Kim and Ron going to college together “was his take”, just that. And for the record, Bob’s comment, which I believe was pretty wise, came as the reply of one of Maetch’s comments, with whom he agreed, and it didn’t seem to have anything to do with the D/S. Besides, Steve said one thing and Bob another, and the only thing you can make out of this is that they just have different opinions, and that’s that.
For me, my take is like Maetch’s, I don’t see a reason for taking anything as canon if is not an actual episode. Others can believe whatever they want, and that’s that.
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Post by yvj on Dec 5, 2007 22:53:09 GMT -5
Well, like Luke said, point this out: Ambiguity is NOT just for fanfiction writers. Part of the reason for which KP is such a great show is because it makes the fans think about it, wonder about the character’s life and unanswered question, like Shego’s past or how Drakken turned blue. If the writer and authors would answer every of these things, then the series wouldn’t make fans want to watch episode after episode in hopes to get this questions answered. But if the writers are really smart enough, then they must know which things they shouldn’t answer. Heck, the epilogue itself was like they were saying: “No, we are NOT gonna tell you how he did turn blue”. Overall people, the thing is simple: Ambiguity SELLS! And at any rate, our stance is the same. If Kim and Ron going to the same college shouldn’t matter because fanfic writers can always write it differently, then the same thing is if Kim and Ron don’t go to college together, ‘cause fanfic writers can always write them going to the same one. And in the end, the show itself never confirmed it. Same things applies with the VIP’s words. If Bob said his comments because of the D/S rant, then in the same vein Steve’s answer could have been what he thought the fans wanted to hear. Now, I’m not disregarding anyone’s words here, just making points. And if my memory’s right, for one, I remember Steve said that Kim and Ron going to college together “was his take”, just that. And for the record, Bob’s comment, which I believe was pretty wise, came as the reply of one of Maetch’s comments, with whom he agreed, and it didn’t seem to have anything to do with the D/S. Besides, Steve said one thing and Bob another, and the only thing you can make out of this is that they just have different opinions, and that’s that. For me, my take is like Maetch’s, I don’t see a reason for taking anything as canon if is not an actual episode. Others can believe whatever they want, and that’s that. You have a point on fan fiction but the thing is some questions have to be answered. Kim and Ron going to school together was an integral part of Graduation. Why bring up the question and display its importance when you're not going to answer? That's when ambiguity becomes a problem. Heck this is not a Cohen brother movie we're dealing with. As for Steve's comments as I told Cadmus you have to take it for what its worth. But Steve's answer pretty much holds weight with me because his description of the final scenes and the "Disney" explanation seems way more honest to me. I'd take into (more) consideration Bob's (who hadn't posted in the forum for months prior and it was DAYS after Graduation) comment if it hadn't come on the heels of fan upheaval, where people were insulting the VIP.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 5, 2007 23:07:32 GMT -5
To be honest, I have to agree that the whole college stuff should have had SOME enclousure, maybe not just a Yes or No, but something.
And sorry if I'm wrong, but I can't help but to feel that you're being a bit biased by crediting the comments that benefit your ideal destiny for your pairing but not taking much consideration for the one that doesn't. And I made some research just a moment ago, and Bob's comment actually didn't appear 'til about 10 days AFTER the rant. If said comments were really because of the rant, I would have expected them sooner.
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Post by yvj on Dec 5, 2007 23:31:34 GMT -5
To be honest, I have to agree that the whole college stuff should have had SOME enclousure, maybe not just a Yes or No, but something. And sorry if I'm wrong, but I can't help but to feel that you're being a bit biased by crediting the comments that benefit your ideal destiny for your pairing but not taking much consideration for the one that doesn't. Maybe I am being biased that is quite possible I will not deny this. But here is what I'm looking at. 1) Bob hadn't posted for months and he was around during the initial days after Graduation. You can see who's online on the front page. Believe it or not I had seen Bob for the lack of a better word "trolling" after Graduation. 2) Steve started answering question almost immediately after Graduation. It is safe to assume that Bob had to have seen his answers right? Now I cannot for sure say that that Bob saw Steve's comments or any others. But chances are he would be interested in fan comments and fan opinion on the finale so I assumed he would have read most posts. 3) He made no comments positive or negative until after the incident. (And he hasn't since to my knowledge) I find it a bit hard to believe he dropped in once, (after fans expressed disappointment and where there was a heated debate over what's actually canon) just to say "spin it the way you want folks, later" 4) I would have done the same thing if I saw that a few people were angry. You can't blame me for seeing it the way I do. And I don't think its that much of stretch. Though I am not immune to fanboyism Anyway I feel that Steve comments are more honest, he by the way addressed those who were angry directly by saying "This is the story we wanted to tell" Oh and whether they had gone to college together or not does not affect K/R destiny in my eyes. I can see it working out either way and I've written it that way in my fics. So I'm not harping just for a K/R situation. If I thought different college was enough to break them up then I have no faith in the relationship
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 5, 2007 23:37:37 GMT -5
I don't blame you for having your perspective nor I put your words at doubt, but I'm afraid we're not getting anywhere with this, so well, let's just agree to disagree and keep visiting the forum daily. See ya later.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 6, 2007 0:56:52 GMT -5
Overall people, the thing is simple: Ambiguity SELLS! No the characters, and what they HAVE TO SAY is what sells. Ambiguity by itself doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. Your ability to whether you want to believe that or not doesn't make it true. And for all intents and purposes, I think Maetch is only believing what he wants to believe because its more conveinient for him to say "I don't believe it unless I see it" because his little fan fiction world wouldn't fit tv canon if he did believe the VIP's. That's just my opinion of course. To me the ending felt like a total cheat because it didn't answer anything, and whether they realize it or not, they pretty much negated Ron's character when he sent a college acceptance letter to every college in the country, and he got nothing at all. I know it was done for the sake of a plot point, but build up only works if you get pay off, but there was no pay off to speak of. In short, the end didn't feel like a happy ending; The End felt like the show pretending to have a happy ending IMO.
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Post by yvj on Dec 6, 2007 1:19:21 GMT -5
I can see where you're coming from cadmus. Fanfiction will never be able to replace the show so it would have been nice to have some type of closure on the school thing. I kind of felt the same way about the Sopranos ending but over time I've grown to like it.
Offtopic: I have a gut feeling that in the next five years. There will at least be a KP movie or something. So we will get answers one of these days. Some I'm sure a few in the fandom won't like, but that's the thing you can't please everyone.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 6, 2007 16:26:11 GMT -5
Overall people, the thing is simple: Ambiguity SELLS! No the characters, and what they HAVE TO SAY is what sells. Ambiguity by itself doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. Hey, hey, hold your horses for a second. I never said that ambiguity was the reason for the show success. Of course that the characters are one of the most important characters factors of the show, if not the most. But you got to notice what kind of fandom does KP have, 'cause it's not like everybody is cheering for K/R, so if the whole series would be focused in only these two and their relationship, giving less airtime to the rest of characters, the show wouldn't have been no even half of successful as it is today. I believe the authors and writers tried to make the best they could for all the public they could satisfy, and for that, some amount of ambiguity is needed. But as I said before, I agree that Graduation should have had at least a bit more of enclosuring (I even have my own idea of how it should have been, as little as it may matter to others), but what are you gonna do about it? It's not like your complains are gonna make it true. And besides, Maetch's and my perspective should matter even less to you if you don't agree with it. Too bad that you can't enjoy fanfiction that much, but for me, fanfiction is even better than canon. I even started reading KP Fanfics before watching the show! Hopefully, Yvs might be right and we might get a "better" ending, so to say. I just hope we can all like it.
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Post by Luke Danger on Dec 7, 2007 19:59:36 GMT -5
No the characters, and what they HAVE TO SAY is what sells. Ambiguity by itself doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. Hey, hey, hold your horses for a second. I never said that ambiguity was the reason for the show success. Of course that the characters are one of the most important characters factors of the show, if not the most. But you got to notice what kind of fandom does KP have, 'cause it's not like everybody is cheering for K/R, so if the whole series would be focused in only these two and their relationship, giving less airtime to the rest of characters, the show wouldn't have been no even half of successful as it is today. I believe the authors and writers tried to make the best they could for all the public they could satisfy, and for that, some amount of ambiguity is needed. But as I said before, I agree that Graduation should have had at least a bit more of enclosuring (I even have my own idea of how it should have been, as little as it may matter to others), but what are you gonna do about it? It's not like your complains are gonna make it true. And besides, Maetch's and my perspective should matter even less to you if you don't agree with it. Too bad that you can't enjoy fanfiction that much, but for me, fanfiction is even better than canon. I even started reading KP Fanfics before watching the show! Hopefully, Yvs might be right and we might get a "better" ending, so to say. I just hope we can all like it. Agreed. Fanfics allow us to explore sitches DC won't let Kim and Ron get in because of their obsession with good guys winning all the time. I mean, anyone who's read my fic up as far as it's gotten (I got to rewrite it after I'm done, clean the beggining up, man the beggining part sucked hawk-poo-after-hawk-finished-killing/eating-crow-in-front-of-school-in-sight-of-students), it actually has a skilled Shego, some real-world weapons in use (albiet sci-fi style updated with a slice of sci-fi and fantasy involved, but I'm trying to make a generally pleasing fanfic. [Even for the KiGo fans (yes, bit of KiGo, but more along the lines of respecting eachothers skills)]) and of course, Kim and Ron finally get to use some hardware that'd be handy against arned bad guys yes? seriously, the thing about fanfics is it allows more creative sinarios, and we ain't ristricted by DC's stupid 'no bullets, just lasers' rule.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 13, 2007 17:41:54 GMT -5
And besides, Maetch's and my perspective should matter even less to you if you don't agree with it. Too bad that you can't enjoy fanfiction that much, but for me, fanfiction is even better than canon. I even started reading KP Fanfics before watching the show! It's not you and Maetch's perspective that bothers me. What bothers me the most is Bob changing his mind on his perspective of how Kim and Ron's future turns out just to satisfy one person's perspective (i.e. the easy way out), instead of sticking to his word of what he had said before. To me telling the fans of KP "the show belongs to the fans to interpret anyway they want now." just feels like taking the easy way out. If he had stuck to his original intention for Kim and Ron to end up in the same college, than I would've been satisfied. Also Alexlayer I have nothing against fanfiction in general, except for when fans use it an excuse for the show's final product. Example: "Well it didn't get answered but there's always fanfiction." That's the kind of crap that gets on my nerves. And I don't read fanfiction of KP all that much and here's why, majority of the fanfiction lacks something that the show has done well with majority of the time, SUBTLETY. Most fan fic writers don't get how to use subtlety and just hit people over the head with their interpretations most of the time (Kigo being the prime example). And that's why most of the time, I avoid fan fiction like the plague.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 14, 2007 0:25:56 GMT -5
Now this is really one big mess-up. Let's go part by part. It's not you and Maetch's perspective that bothers me. What bothers me the most is Bob changing his mind on his perspective of how Kim and Ron's future turns out just to satisfy one person's perspective (i.e. the easy way out), instead of sticking to his word of what he had said before. To me telling the fans of KP "the show belongs to the fans to interpret anyway they want now." just feels like taking the easy way out. If he had stuck to his original intention for Kim and Ron to end up in the same college, than I would've been satisfied. First. For the record, I've never heard of Bob changing his mind. That what he said contradicted what Steve said is what happened, but I can't recall him agreeing before. That's why I say he must just have a different perspective. Of course, this is just my guess and we'd need a real confession from Bob to confirm it, but I wouldn't raise my hopes on that if I were you. Regarding what Bob actually said, I feel like it is one of the greatest gift he could have give to the fandom. As I said before, speculations keeps a fandom alive long after the show ended, making the fans still wonder and debate about it's elements. And for what I see, it is working marvelously on YOU of all people. Also Alexlayer I have nothing against fanfiction in general, except for when fans use it an excuse for the show's final product. Example: "Well it didn't get answered but there's always fanfiction." That's the kind of crap that gets on my nerves. The irony of this is that you're telling this to someone who does not just have Fanfiction after canon, but also had it before even watching one single episode. Okay, now, irrelevant stuff aside... Again, this is just like my perspective or the one of ANY fan. It shouldn't bother you, at least not that much, whenever a fan can stay contents with an alternative ending or an expanded one from Fanfiction. I mean, if they are happy with this, what the HECK is wrong with that? If Fanfiction can cheer people up, then the more, the better. This could actually be perfect to you if you're so unsatisfied with the ending. Go and read one of those after-canon fanfics like MrDrP's So Not The End of the World. Now, if you can ONLY take Canon, then unfortunately I got to tell you that you're in a dead end, 'cause even though I'd actually like a fifth season, I'm afraid the chances of getting ANYTHING new of KP (Officially speakin) are really low. And I don't read fanfiction of KP all that much and here's why, majority of the fanfiction lacks something that the show has done well with majority of the time, SUBTLETY. Most fan fic writers don't get how to use subtlety and just hit people over the head with their interpretations most of the time (Kigo being the prime example). And that's why most of the time, I avoid fan fiction like the plague. Okay, seriously, I've read that paragraph more times than what I care to count and I'm still trying to figure out what you were trying to say with "Subtlety", specially considering that's one of the least things I've seen in a show like this. If what you're criticizing here is the character's portrayal in Fanfiction 'cause it doesn't "stick to Canon", then again, you're in a dead end, my friend, because it's not only the ending. The ENTIRE show is pretty ambiguous! For example, you can portray Ron as a whinny coward OR as a brave friend that's never gonna abandon his friends OR as a jerk who rarely listen to others and ALL those portrayals are In-Characters, because Ron has been show in all those faces, and more, in the show itself. Shego is another controversial character, having stated that she wanted to kill Kim by herself more than once but having let go MANY opportunities that she had around Season 4. Unless the Fanfiction would be writing by one of the authors of KP, it is totally impossible to make a 100% loyal-to-Canon portrayal of the characters. Since we cannot read the character's minds, in order to write about them, the only thing we can be based on is in our interpretations to their words and actions. Yeah, INTERPRETATIONS. Because that's actually ALL we can work with from our positions as fan-writers. And being KP a show that's entirely so ambiguous, there's always going to be a lot of different interpretations. Sometimes similar, sometimes different. And not just in Fanfiction, but also a lot of the things we discuss on this forum. The only way you're gonna find a portrayal fitting your own perspective is going to be writing it yourself. That's all I can tell you. Now, OVERALL. Honestly, and I'm saying this as an advice, either accept the so open ending or accept fanfiction, or all that's left for you is to complain about your unanswered question forever.
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