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Post by yvj on Dec 14, 2007 15:33:15 GMT -5
I think what cadmus is really mad about is that in essence removing our love for KP and what the fans what, Graduation though I liked it is marred slightly by bad storytelling. Like a blockbuster summer movie, you'll enjoy the adventure as a whole but when you boil it down to "narrative, plot structure, pacing, climax etc etc" it leaves a bit to be desired. It's a badly cut diamond But cadmus the thing is we didn't get the Ron showing up at Kim's school ending but there is enough in the finale itself refrencing their future. You said earlier that what the characters say is important, not any fan's intpretations well Kim said alot in the finale. Stuff like "Nothing is ever going to come between us Ron" (paraphase) Now I assume from what you said earlier you're the kind of guy who takes the words (canon statments) at face value, well those words right there should be enough. Even with an abrupt open ending. It was for me anyway. Oh and I must (as always) take the oppertunity to disagree and agree with Alexlayer while the show is ambigious on some points, it's not as ambigious as you imply Oh and yes that fic that Alexlayer recommend by MrDrP is pretty dang close to canon. Fanfic writers can never get to a one hundred percent likeness of the show but MrDrP can deliver a ninety five percent likeness most of the time. And that's better than nothing. There are times where you'll think one of the VIP's are ghost writting for him.
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Post by Luke Danger on Dec 14, 2007 15:47:26 GMT -5
Whoa, I missed something.
Now, I'm with Alexander here, leaving all ambiguity is a load of bogus, and really isn't a smart idea. But doing ambiguity, as in, let's say, Kim and Ron are happy and it all is well (or at least as well as a world that just suffered global invasion that just got halted could be), now that's a reasonible ending.
Now, as Alexander said, fanfics arn't the only way to show how we think Kim and Ron go, what we talk about here is part of it.
Now, there are more things left to intepitation other then what direction the KP world goes after Graduation, but also elements, such as Ron's MMP, we can interpert it diferently. For example, I interpet Ron's uberness (for those who don't speak German, or gamer-speak, that means to much, usually a reference to way to powerful by gamers) as a breif 'fury' Ron can enter as a last resort, and the first time, he gets off jack free for it. But later, it costs him dearly, as with any magic he uses.
For example, let's say a American M1 Abrams is trying to put some shells on Ron, he could use magic to peirce the armor so he could beat it open, but it'd cost a bit of energy. Now, something like creating a magical sheild to stop say... a dozen nukes from raining on a single island, then the energy required would probably kill him after the first nuke hits. It is a similar esque to Eragon's rules of magic, and I think those are reasonable.
So of course, it sounds like Ron can measure it, but he has to rely on how his body feels, so for example, he doesn't know to cost of a ability untill he tries it, and if he wants to use the best magic, well, he'd have to have plenty of energy to do it or be willing to sacrifice his life, because it easily could kill him if he has no idea how.
Now, of course, there are low-cost passive boosts that he could use, such as using magic as awareness of something, like a enemy fighter. Ron could keep track of it, and it's line of fire, without too much trouble, and can focus on other things.
So basically, what I'm trying to say is that Ron's powers are open to interpitation as much as Kim's ability to learn on the fly or do incredible feats of dexterity and stamina.
So in the end, things can be chock full with ambiguity where you'd never expect it.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 15, 2007 2:42:37 GMT -5
First. For the record, I've never heard of Bob changing his mind. That what he said contradicted what Steve said is what happened, but I can't recall him agreeing before. That's why I say he must just have a different perspective. Of course, this is just my guess and we'd need a real confession from Bob to confirm it, but I wouldn't raise my hopes on that if I were you. In the finale thread he mentioned something about Kim and Ron heading to the stars (i.e. college) together. Then in this thread he just changes his mind to satisfy one fan complaint. It sort of reminded me of the Grande Size Me complaint when he told fans just to take it as non-canon, just another easy way out in my opinion. Though I've never had a problem with Grande Size Me like most fans. Sticking up for your work is more convincing than just saying "take it as non-canon if its satisfying for you." It's part of the reason why I respected Steve Loter's decision for sticking up for D/S despite the silly thread that complained about it. I'm not expecting an answer from Bob anytime soon, if he's read any of my entries chances are I'm probably his least favorite member on here. Yeah, but for entirely the wrong reasons. You don't need to leave things open ended to leave people (or me) talking about your show. Example X-Men Evolution (one of my favorite shows) ended on a very satisfying note. It gave fans enough closure to be happy with, but left JUST ENOUGH open, just in case it got picked up again. Same thing with Justice League Unlimited. Both shows ended satisfyingly and I still talk about them to this day. The trick to open endedness is in what to leave open and what to give closure to. X-Men Evolution & JLU did this, KP even did this with So The Drama, it was one of the contributing factors to season 4, the story was THAT GOOD. Graduation unfortunately couldn't repeat the same quality, and the lack of questions that NEEDED answering was one of it's main downfalls. Where did I say anything about sticking to canon? Also Kim & Ron's relationship was succesful in season 4 because of two reasons. One of them being SUBTLETY, the other one being them sticking to one of the golden rules of show business SHOW don't tell. It showed us their feelings and didn't stick to using just words. Same thing with Drakken and Shego to a degree. That is what I'm talking about with subtlety, most fan fic writers just seem to use words that come out of the characters mouths to describe them and nothing else.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 15, 2007 2:47:49 GMT -5
I think what cadmus is really mad about is that in essence removing our love for KP and what the fans what, Graduation though I liked it is marred slightly by bad storytelling. Like a blockbuster summer movie, you'll enjoy the adventure as a whole but when you boil it down to "narrative, plot structure, pacing, climax etc etc" it leaves a bit to be desired. It's a badly cut diamond ding, ding, ding, we have a winner Johny!
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Post by eclogite on Dec 15, 2007 14:05:49 GMT -5
It could also be interpreted as the crew saying, in effect, we're on to other things now, so we'll let you enjoy speculating and debating about these things. I would imagine that while most of the crew has a fondness for the characters they are concentrating more on their new endeavors. The remarks from the luncheon (which I can no longer seem to find) indicated that at least one crew member was ready to put it all behind him.
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Post by rd on Dec 15, 2007 14:44:15 GMT -5
That's true, Eclogite. I was there at the lunch.
Now, it seems, that there is a lot more complacency all around with the show being concluded and a big hunk of the Crew being on to different projects. Not only that, but even at different studios, too.
We need to let Bob, Mark and Steve determine what happens next at the end of their new contracts at Nick.
Who knows when THAT will be?
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Post by drakkensgurl on Dec 17, 2007 14:37:58 GMT -5
Who does know?...
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Post by Joe Stoppinghem on Dec 17, 2007 19:54:19 GMT -5
The Shadow knows! Hah, haah, AHAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 23, 2007 20:32:00 GMT -5
Steve Loter and Bob both CONFIRMED they go to the same college together. The alternate ending had them going to the same college. Therefore it's Canon. I hope you know that second quote from Bob was talking about the questions in that thread that hadnt already been answered. People were starting to bash the VIPS because of there answers to those question. So therefore to put an end to it Bob basically said he wasnt going to answer anymore questions and that from now on it's ambigous. Bob said this after he stated K/R go to the same college. So he was not referring to the college thing. The point is Kim/Ron are together forever and will never break up (TPTB have said this numerous times). They go to the same college. (It was an alternate ending. It's just as valid and Canon as the greese one*Steve Loter said this-the diretor*). Denial just aint a river in egypt. K/R go to the same college together. Drakken/Shego are a couple. K/R will be together forever and not ever break up. There were some things left ambigious. These however were not things that were. Read the graduation review thread over again if you don't believe Bob said K/R go to the same college. Just because of a post he said after that does not take away from his original post. He is a co-creator of the series. I mean it was an alternate ending. It was going to be the ending if Disney allowed it. It had them going to the same college. Bob and Steve both confirmed that. I hate to burst you're bubble Alex but this is what Bob said. If you think they don't end up at the same college I guess the earth is flat. Bob states Ron was worrying over nothing and That K/R head to the stars together. The ending that was cut had Kim and Ron seemingly heading off to different colleges, only to end up at the same one in the last shot, with Ron saying something about taking the long way. It was cut for several reasons. Mostly because the execs thought that college was a little too far out of the world of their core viewers. For us, it was kind of a cheat and a bit low energy so we didn't argue the merits of that objection. What I like about the "Grease" ending is that it actually confirms that Ron was worrying over nothing. His fear was that Kim was heading to the stars and he would be stuck on earth. In the end they are heading to the stars together. We just thought the Grease staging was a funny way to show this. We wanted to go out on a smile rather than bittersweet. There's plenty of bittersweet within the rest of it.
Then Steve.... One of the alternate endings had Kim and Ron going to the same college. Well, they were only alternate because we could only have one ending. In my mind, all the alternate endings are still valid. Steve is the director. So I think his mind has more of an Idea whats Canon then a fan's view. Bob did not disagree with Steve's mind when they did the finale. I know you will spin this Alex but as I say below the people who matter know K/R go to the same college. If this isnt Canon, Canon doesnt exist. I mean I honestly don't know how this is debatable. Bob (The Co-Creator) and Steve (The Director) both explicitly state K/R go to the same college. Bob and Steve both explicitly stated Drakken/Shego were a couple. As I said some things were left ambigious. Those are what Bob was likely refering to with what he said what he did in this thread. Bob was not talking about the things he and steve had already answered like K/R going to the same college and D/S dating. What Bob said in this thread does not mean those answers are now false Bob and Steve gave us in the Review Thread that I posted above. They were said by Bob and Steve. They have never lied to us. I loved when Steve told it like it is and said they made the show the wanted to make. He did not sugercoat his feelings at all. I just felt I should chime in. I'm not as obsessed with KP anymore but that does not mean I can let people be convinced K/R are not together forever. It's been stated by TPTB. Really thats all I need now. Kim/Ron are together forever. Anything else is basically a different show where the charecters happen to have the same name as the charecters in Kim Possible. So you won't see me in this thread again. I'm surprised to see people have still been posting in it.
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Post by KRfan on Dec 23, 2007 21:12:01 GMT -5
Any idea what were the other alternate endings?
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 23, 2007 21:25:07 GMT -5
Any idea what were the other alternate endings? Loter said 5-6. They only described the college one. They probably would have described the other alternate endings if some people did not start bashing them because of there answers to the questions about K/R going to college together and D/S being a couple. After they confirmed these as canon some people went off on the VIPs.
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Post by cadmus on May 7, 2008 17:01:19 GMT -5
Steve Loter and Bob both CONFIRMED they go to the same college together. The alternate ending had them going to the same college. Therefore it's Canon. Until a higher up in Bob, said he agreed with someone that "If it's not On Screen it's not canon". Thus shooting down what he said before that. Also anyone ever notice that most of the people unhappy with the D/S resolution, are either fanfic or Kigo obsessors? Anyways the reason I'm bumping this again is because this point Bob made with Maetch, gets on my nerves still for many reasons. 1.) Him agreeing that off screen material by the VIP's does not = canon pretty much shot down Kim & Ron going to college together, as canon. 2.) It was never really necessary that HE HAD TO SAY THAT he agreed with Maetch's opinion. Saying "the show belongs to the fans now to spin any way they want" only benefits fan-fic writers, not fans who have given their time and attention to these characters (and have valued what the VIP's opinions on these characters are) from the first day the show premiered in June of 2002. To me it just felt like a total cheat (and an unintentional slap in the face to viewers like me), and an easy way out, so he wouldn't have to answer any of the off-screen questions. Personally I feel it was a mistake for Bob to say on screen=canon, regardless of what I or any other VIP says. IMO if I'm a creator of a tv show, you never (channeling The Rock ;D) AND I MEAN NEVER, tell the fanbase that your opinion of what happens off screen doesn't matter. Because after that nobody will take your opinion about what happens on the show seriously. Never give your fanbase an excuse to say my opinion doesn't matter. And never tell anybody that the power of a show belongs to fans 100%. Because in all actuality, it makes your opinion less valuable. There's a reason why you don't hear a politician saying "my opinion doesn't matter." I know Bob's intention was probably just to give one answer to about 100 questions, and to avoid having to answer these questions. But IMO Bob taking the easy way out in this thread, felt like Homer Simpson trading his soul for a donut without thinking of the consequences of his actions. (not as extreme I know, but you get the point) I know I'm gonna get more people who think I'm whining about this, and over reacting. And I won't blame you if you do. But after following these characters from day one, and watching these characters actually evolve for 5 years, is it wrong to feel that I as a long time fan felt cheated? IS IT?
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Post by DP on May 7, 2008 17:42:57 GMT -5
It's good to be the oddball. ;D
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Post by slicknickshady on Nov 18, 2008 8:20:37 GMT -5
Steve Loter and Bob both CONFIRMED they go to the same college together. The alternate ending had them going to the same college. Therefore it's Canon. Until A higher up in Bob, said he agreed with someone that "If it's not On Screen it's not canon". Thus shooting down what he said before that. Also anyone ever notice that most of the people unhappy with the D/S resolution, are either fanfic or Kigo obsessors? Anyways the reason I'm bumping this again is because this point Bob made with Maetch, gets on my nerves still for many reasons. 1.) Him agreeing that off screen material by the VIP's does not = canon pretty much shot down Kim & Ron going to college together, as canon. 2.) It was never really necessary that HE HAD TO SAY THAT he agreed with Maetch's opinion. Saying "the show belongs to the fans now to spin any way they want" only benefits fan-fic writers, not fans who have given their time and attention to these characters (and have valued what the VIP's opinions on these characters are) from the first day the show premiered in June of 2002. To me it just felt like A total cheat (and an unintentional slap in the face to viewers like me), and an easy way out, so he wouldn't have to answer any of the off-screen questions. Personally I feel it was A mistake for Bob to say on screen=canon, regardless of what I or any other VIP says. IMO if I'm A creator of A tv show, you never (channeling The Rock ;D) AND I MEAN NEVER, tell the fanbase that your opinion of what happens off screen doesn't matter. Because after that nobody will take your opinion about what happens on the show seriously. Never give your fanbase an excuse to say my opinion doesn't matter. And never tell anybody that the power of A show belongs to fans 100%. Because in all actuality, it makes your opinion less valuable. There's A reason why you don't hear A politician saying "my opinion doesn't matter." I know Bob's intention was probably just to give one answer to about 100 questions, and to avoid having to answer these questions. But IMO Bob taking the easy way out in this thread, felt like Homer Simpson trading his soul for A donut without thinking of the consequences of his actions. (not as extreme I know, but you get the point) I know I'm gonna get more people who think I'm whining about this, and over reacting. And I won't blame you if you do. But after following these characters from day one, and watching these characters actually evolve for 5 years, is it wrong to feel that I as A long time fan felt cheated? IS IT? You need to read Bob's post in this thread again and then read eclogites post that somehow I missed before. It makes sense that tptb would not want to answer question after question after question about Canon. The truth of the matter is everything that the powers that be have said is still true. Kim and Ron will be together forever, never break up. That didnt change based on the comments in this thread that he made to shut some people up. Also....realize that bob was talking about the questions that he had not answered yet....So all the questions he had answered are still valid.
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