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Post by Nightspade on Jun 15, 2010 1:27:15 GMT -5
There is no need to rephrase, but for the hard-of-thinking, I'll use boolean logic and pseudo-code: * IF (Poster is Anti-Kim-Possible) AND (No rationale given) THEN Poster = Stupid The blogger did give rationale, I'd like to point that out. From a feminist point of view they did not feel Kim Possible was a worthy female role model. * IF (Poster dislikes what I like) AND (I like everything of artistic high standing, plus everything with similar qualities, plus the majority of cult films, plus 99.9% of all telefantasy) THEN Poster = REALLY Stupid, as there's nothing intellectual left and only non-intellectuals enjoy non-intellectual drivel as their only diet Let's say that I like what you like (Not too far fetched, we BOTH can agree to liking Doctor Who and Kim Possible [though I'll gladly admit that you probably have a far more in depth knowledge of Doctor Who than I]) but that I also like the 00.1% of telefantasy that you don't, and there are other things in the 99.9% that you do like that I find unwatchable. I'm automatically REALLY Stupid because I happen to not like a few TV shows? You can't champion diverse opinions while at the same time calling anyone who does have a different interest of hobby than yours stupid. I just feel that it doesn't work that way. * IF (Poster tells ME what to like) THEN Poster is a bigot as well as stupid * IF (Poster's opinions differ from my opinions) THEN that is fine as opinions aren't people, it is certain that opinions will differ. That is wholly unimportant. It is what you do about it that matters. Telling others they are wrong is not an opinion, it is a statement of bigotry. But again I fail to see where the author of the blog in question specifically told you what you had and had not to like. Next, is my viewpoint infallible? Define infallible. infallible [ɪnˈfæləbəl] adj 1. not fallible; not liable to error 2. not liable to failure; certain; sure an infallible cure 3. completely dependable or trustworthy n a person or thing that is incapable of error or failure infallibility , infallibleness n infallibly adv My viewpoint grows and evolves with every new fact. To me, it is infallible because it is able to do so. It is the stagnant, the stale, the morribund, who are wrong. Always. Those who grow may be incorrect, but only for a time, and by learning they are NEVER wrong. They aren't 'NEVER wrong,' they're still wrong for that period of time that they held the incorrect perspective. This may be an area where you and I will have to agree to disagree on philosophically. So, yes, I am infallible, for the only way to fail is to think nothing, do nothing, grow nothing, say nothing, be nothing. The moment you are anything but nothing, you are perfect. But, as stated, that is merely my perspective. You can decide you are wrong more often than that if you like. It's your freedom. But you admit that you can still be wrong and make the wrong choices, you are therefore fallible if you go by the definition I have given. Sure you can learn from your mistakes, but the fact that you still make them means you are liable to failure.
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Post by Beaglebub on Jun 15, 2010 4:21:07 GMT -5
Well, I've heard every kind of criticism imaginable aimed at Kim over the years. And you know what? It all evaporates into the air like farts in the breeze.
What more could people want in a role model? She's strong, brave and intelligent. And she's very human, because she can fail. Sometimes Kim needs help from her friends.
She's not a superhero made of steel. She's just your basic average girl.
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Post by Nightspade on Jun 15, 2010 12:47:11 GMT -5
... She's just your basic average girl. Who knows 16 different kinds of Kung Fu, saves the world on a day to day basis, has an entire family of super geniuses (along with a plethora of super geniuses friends and acquaintances), has a jet pack, a grapple gun, and laser lip stick, a super suit that can heal itself along with create force fields, and despite having a ton of extra curricular activities and having to save the world almost every night she still manages to be well rested for still and get perfect grades. How many average girls can say they do all that?
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Post by manofevil on Jun 15, 2010 15:13:58 GMT -5
Well that's what you call a comedic hook. It's so ridiculous it's funny. Sort of like being able to get around the world in an afternoon or being able to carry 99 million dollars around in your pockets. I don't think I've seen that hook done in any other show.
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Post by imipak on Jun 15, 2010 18:27:51 GMT -5
Let's go though this one more time. Infallibility cannot be open-ended, it must connect to a definite when and where.. A person can be infallible with a problem space, they might never mistakes about Monkey Kung Fu. If two or more outcomes are possible, an infallible person will usually see them as equal To differentiate future events like that requires Omnipresence.
But this is not you you are using the word, so how are you using it?
In my case I regard my methodology (which a essentially Classical thinking and Oxfordiam attitudes) as perfect in and of themselves, though am always welcome some CONSTRUCTIVE commentary. It is superb for certain types of problem but not others. Show KP FFF is outside my capacity and I'll accept the claim. Show my arguments logically rebuts a FFF, that's fine.
Fight over five the way 10 yro schoolkids on a field trip -- pillow fight and show no mercy - is only going to show you know neither whom you attacking or why.
I am beginning to understand why Drakken was always building in remote location. Importing enough feathers for the pillow fight would draw way too much attention.
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Post by Dr. Feelgood on Jun 16, 2010 13:43:01 GMT -5
Members of fandom have absolutely no business WHATSOEVER attacking other members of fandom. If you can't stand the idea of someone liking something that you don't happen to like, b-er off for you're no real fan of what you do purport to like - how can you be? Your likes will shift, same as everyone else's, which means what you loath and despise WILL include that which you claim to love. Can't have it both ways. Fans are fans, pundits are pundits, fadists are fadists, and never the twain shall meet. imipak, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone on this board that doesn't like KP. Finding someone who doesn't like the FFF, however, is near inevitable. Frankly, I was ready to join the FFF after I'd seen the finale, until I found out what the FFF is all about: A) Spamming, B) Treating reasonable advice that might actually help them as acts of treason, and C) Displaying an obnoxious sense of entitlement and superiority while doing so. In other words, not only do they persist in using tactics that has a better chance of hurting their cause than achieving their goal; they respond to attempts at reasoning with them with childish rebuttals. Some of us have given up on them, while others respond in kind. Why tell us we're so inferior that we should be less deserving of respect than you would demand for yourself? I would not expect to be respected if I acted like that. They have done everything to earn the disrespect they get.
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Post by nabusan on Jun 16, 2010 18:05:44 GMT -5
the author was blatantly a former member here or a lurker
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Post by imipak on Jun 16, 2010 19:23:31 GMT -5
imipak, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone on this board that doesn't like KP. Finding someone who doesn't like the FFF, however, is near inevitable. Frankly, I was ready to join the FFF after I'd seen the finale, until I found out what the FFF is all about:(snip) Now that is what I call I well-reasoned, sensible, mature argument. That is what I like. I like the idea of there being a season 5 (on condition that there are top writers for it and it's done with an eye for maximum impact rather than maximum running away from it), but I am not married to a specific approach, a specific personality, or even a specific format. I'm also open to being given calm, reasonable, reasoned ideas on why a fifth season wouldn't work. ("Cos I say so" isn't reasoned.) Dr. Bakaizen, I can read your post, calm and collected as it is, and see in it many of the qualities that sets fandom apart. Real fans are willing to disagree. What I dislike, with a passion, is being cursed, spat-at, abused and harassed merely for stating my opinion that a fifth season is not only doable but, with just the right elements, could be the mega-amazing. And, yes, some of the posts directed at me went well beyond what I'd consider OK. That isn't fandom, that's religion. True, I'm more sensitive than many, and things that most "neurotypical" people wouldn't think twice about can literally reduce me to tears. It does make it extremely hard for me. To ask others to even hold off on the flammage to even the slightest degree is imposing absolutely unjustifiable and inexcusable limits, even if I were a mod - and I'm not. (And, yes, before anyone asks, certain hot-button ways of pushing me off the deep-end will tap into a degree of resentment and anger. That's =my= problem, I do apologize for it, and I do apologize for any offence.) The burning question is: is it even possible for me to engage in fandom, all things considered? This isn't an I'm-better-than-you or you're-better-than-me, it's an honest question. In the same way that you can't toast marshmallows over a jet engine, is it possible I'm not cut out for this board? No insult intended, no implication of anyone doing anything wrong, but this isn't working for me and I can't find any way to fix it.
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Post by imipak on Jun 16, 2010 19:24:45 GMT -5
... She's just your basic average girl. Who knows 16 different kinds of Kung Fu, saves the world on a day to day basis, has an entire family of super geniuses (along with a plethora of super geniuses friends and acquaintances), has a jet pack, a grapple gun, and laser lip stick, a super suit that can heal itself along with create force fields, and despite having a ton of extra curricular activities and having to save the world almost every night she still manages to be well rested for still and get perfect grades. How many average girls can say they do all that? The ones the Three Investigators would have hung out with, but were too busy to.
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Post by Dr. Feelgood on Jun 17, 2010 6:40:44 GMT -5
Now that is what I call I well-reasoned, sensible, mature argument. That is what I like. (...) Dr. Bakaizen, I can read your post, calm and collected as it is, and see in it many of the qualities that sets fandom apart. Real fans are willing to disagree. Oh, wow... Thank you! What I dislike, with a passion, is being cursed, spat-at, abused and harassed merely for stating my opinion that a fifth season is not only doable but, with just the right elements, could be the mega-amazing. And, yes, some of the posts directed at me went well beyond what I'd consider OK. I'll try to generalize since I don't know what, specifically, you're referring to. It might help to remember that any animosity you experience while doing so is not really personal, nor is it anti-KP. As far as I can tell, it is the result of frustration that has accumulated over a long period of time, which has evolved into a sense of slightly bewildered amusement at the actions and reactions of various FFF members. Consider it splash damage, if you will. Not that that is any justification to attack new members, though; it is simply an explanation. The naysayers can be rude, but they aren't brainless, nor heartless. Their agenda, if anything, is to make everyone stop taking themselves so damned seriously. That isn't fandom, that's religion. Amen! (Just kidding ) True, I'm more sensitive than many, and things that most "neurotypical" people wouldn't think twice about can literally reduce me to tears. It does make it extremely hard for me. To ask others to even hold off on the flammage to even the slightest degree is imposing absolutely unjustifiable and inexcusable limits, even if I were a mod - and I'm not. I think the mods, and many members of this board, can appreciate that last notion. Everyone is pretty much free to do as they please here, and while anarchy can be great, it does sometimes require a thick skin. Which brings us to The Question: The burning question is: is it even possible for me to engage in fandom, all things considered? This isn't an I'm-better-than-you or you're-better-than-me, it's an honest question. In the same way that you can't toast marshmallows over a jet engine, is it possible I'm not cut out for this board? I cannot make that call for you, but I will give you some things to consider. First, I think even the trolls can appreciate that you're demonstrably not immune to reason, and, as I've made clear, the FFF needs more people like you (this is not even sarcasm, it really is that bad). Second, I said that the naysayers on this board aren't brainless or heartless, but I'll go further: They can be downright clever and adorable when they want to be, which is actually quite often (Funky & crew being a good example). My advice to you is to not leave this board just yet, but to mix it up a bit, give the Animation Communication Central* and/ or Global Justice Alliance** a try and see what feels more like home. The people here are essentially a good lot, and if you leave altogether, I think you'd be missing out. *ACC: This is an offshoot of this board, created and run by the much respected Grandpa RD to cover a broader range of fandoms. The FFF is active there as well, and, to my knowledge, it's the only other board that the creators of KP visits from time to time. They're off to a slow start, however, and they sorely need new members. ** GJA: Still one of the biggest, most active KP fora, and, last time I checked, troll free.
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Post by Nightspade on Jun 17, 2010 9:54:37 GMT -5
The naysayers can be rude, but they aren't brainless, nor heartless. Their agenda, if anything, is to make everyone stop taking themselves so damned seriously. THANK YOU!
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Post by imipak on Jun 17, 2010 12:55:04 GMT -5
My post reeks of pulling 36-hour shifts with NO TEA and NO BIPOLAR MEDS!
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Post by Twila Starla on Jun 17, 2010 13:05:38 GMT -5
Oh God, the FFF nuts were on this thread in no time. But as a young woman, I can't say I don't agree with the blogger; she makes a very valid point about the show that never occurred to me before. By and by, the show became more about Ron than Kim; his humor, his powers, his villians... not that I blame the writers for doing so. Next to Shego, Ron was always a more interesting character than Kim, he was growing as a hero, but Kim already was one, and remained unstoppable for the most part. But in the end, Ron's characteristics are admirable and amazing, while Kim's come off as annoyingly useless compared to him, something she didn't always suffer from. And that is truly a shame. Unfortunately, super-heroines seem to suffer when it comes to being truly independent women. When the Supergirl character was relaunched in 2003 by DC comics, she was a very kick-as s, angst-ridden teen who fought her battles with both brains and brawn. She dealt with normal teenage drama, heroism, and not to mention an abusive father whose memory still haunted her... she was truly a force to be reckoned with... Until new writers got a hold of the comic in 2008 and completely changed her personality to the original Golden Age Supergirl, whose personality was that of a doormat and relied heavily on other heroes to help fight her battles (which were reduced to helping sick children and a little time travel, last I read; I stopped buying the comics after that). They completely ignored previous canon, calling it a mislap in her memory, and than, went on their merry way with their new, completely unthreatening, Supergirl. *gag* Truth be told, I have yet to see, in my generation at least, an American female lead character who was truly the lead. Most of them only ended up coming off as annoying, needlessly overly-sexualized, bratty, or downright useless compared to the male characters. Most of the strong adimirable female leads I've seen are in shows from other countries, like Japan, Britian, and even Italy. So what kind of woman is the American public trying to create exactly? But that's just my opinion. I don't think the debate here is whether Kim Possible was good or not, but whether kids have proper female role models to look up to. Since KP was both a parody and a comedy, no, I wouldn't exactly call her a perfect role model for girls; at times, Kim was selfish, snobby, and a little annoying. She wasn't nearly as bad as the little girls on Hannah Montana or Wizards of Waverly Place, but still... actually, I think Disney Channel could do a whole lot better when it comes to their female characters, all together. But again, just my two cents.
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Post by Dr. Feelgood on Jun 17, 2010 16:39:34 GMT -5
The naysayers can be rude, but they aren't brainless, nor heartless. Their agenda, if anything, is to make everyone stop taking themselves so damned seriously. THANK YOU!Don't mention it, 'twas my pleasure. ;D My post reeks of pulling 36-hour shifts with NO TEA and NO BIPOLAR MEDS! Heh, well, that's illuminating. I trust everything is nice and level now then. I'm still flattered though. Oh God, the FFF nuts were on this thread in no time. LÖL! A perfect line after this whole debacle! ;D I, too, agree with the blogger to a certain extent. By the fourth season, Kim had shed her childish traits, and had no more room to grow. If she were to go through any real changes, they would have to tear her down a bit first, and the creators were understandably reluctant to do so. Pity, though. I noticed the 'hints at a genuine dark side' as well, and would have loved to see that explored fully. But, alas... Instead they turned to Ron, who was still ripe with flaws (and still not flawless by the end), yet managed to remain very likeable. As such he must've been a writer's dream character. I don't mind in the slightest though, Ron is by far my favorite character, and the main reason the series won me over. Still, calling Kim 'annoyingly useless' is a bit of a stretch. I view Ron's Monkey Master moment merely as Kim's supersuit scene in StD. If the series hadn't ended, his powers would likely have gone back to being intermittent, if they didn't disappear forever. And, if I recall, the battle with the aliens had been a joint effort up until that point. It was simply his turn to shine.
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Post by Twila Starla on Jun 17, 2010 18:10:13 GMT -5
That is true. I always felt more could've been done with Kim's character regarding the season finale though, not that I didn't like Graduation.
But yeah, Kim had already been developed to the fullest extent in So The Drama, so it's understandable that they would switch focus. I really need to rewatch those specials... xD
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Post by Panther on Jun 17, 2010 23:34:36 GMT -5
blah blah FFF blah blah. In every thread...
As for the actual post, I agree with some of the points raised but find it a non-issue. Kim isn't as great a role model as she could be, sure, but that's not necessary to enjoy a show, even for the kids who may see her as such. I never thought of the characters in cartoons I watched as role models when I was a child. All of mine were real people (except for Sonic the Hedgehog, because he could run fast and I was fat and slow). I either enjoyed the characters or I didn't like them, and my ten year old self thought the same way when I joined this forum just over five years ago. I knew Kim had flaws but that didn't matter to me because it's just fiction, and characters don't need to be perfectly developed for me to enjoy watching them.
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Post by imipak on Jun 18, 2010 11:03:20 GMT -5
(snip)Heh, well, that's illuminating. I trust everything is nice and level now then. I'm still flattered though. (snip) Bouncing off the walls makes me a few million times more sensitive to what's going on*, but it doesn't actually alter the thought processes. Thus, all compliments stand exactly as they are written. So there. *This is why I don't understand why anyone would want to be a superhero. Superheros are just really bad cases of bipolar where there's not only no treatment but society wants you to never look for one.
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Post by lovethebeardkevin on Jun 20, 2010 16:32:16 GMT -5
Well if Kim is so great, why is this site called RON STOPPABLE'S Really Neat page...just a thought?
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Post by codenamehunterwolf on Jun 20, 2010 18:56:35 GMT -5
It might help to remember that any animosity you experience while doing so is not really personal, nor is it anti-KP. As far as I can tell, it is the result of frustration that has accumulated over a long period of time, which has evolved into a sense of slightly bewildered amusement at the actions and reactions of various FFF members. Consider it splash damage, if you will. Not that that is any justification to attack new members, though; it is simply an explanation. Going over the forum I can say with complete honesty that I have not seen cause to be frustrated at the FFF. If anything it is the anti FFF opposition who comes across as rabid fanatics usetting the fanbase for shits and giggles, and drawing nasty replies with their actions.
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Post by imipak on Jun 21, 2010 2:32:28 GMT -5
A small observation, regarding monkeys. Well, in fact regarding King Monkey. The story "Journey to the West" centers around Monkey and his maturation, but it is bound so tightly to Tripitaka's journey that the story could have considered either as the main character. It is merely convention that Monkey is used. Even though you could see it as Monkey playing the supporting role to Tripitaka, both Monkey and Tripitaka are still valuable role-models. Indeed, for all that the story is ancient, they ARE still actively used as role-models in many cultures. If you like, KP and Ron play out much the same dynamic - KP replacing Monkey as the action figure in need of learning how be more ok with themselves, Ron is a cross between Tripitaka and Sandy - wanting to improve but doing so in a clumsy way. Rufus has Pigsy's appetite but has better brains. Mind you, there hasn't been an original story in 14,000 years. Originality isn't what it used to be. The only real question is whether that ever mattered at all.
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