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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 27, 2007 8:45:09 GMT -5
Well, cadmus, while this time I got to agree with you at some point that the whole "Hanna Factor" was badly done/introduced/etc and that practically screamed Mary Sue, I got to ask you...
Why the heck do you watch the show!?
I mean, seriously, is there ANY episode you've enjoyed? Is there anyone in particular you could give a good, congratulating review? Seriously, I know the show has a lot of flaws itself, and many of the "plots of the weeks" are dissapointly predictable, but when I watch the show, I watch it to enjoy it for what it is, not for what I would expect from it. I take the good and the bad and try to enjoy it as much as I can, as I usually try to enjoy the fandom too. Can't you enjoy the episodes for what they are, for the funny phrases that come up now and then, for the entertaining characters we all love, and all the good stuff? 'cause if not, well, again: Why are you watching the show?
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Post by cadmus on Dec 28, 2007 2:54:10 GMT -5
Cadmus i'm beginning to think you are a schtick. I'm not sure what you mean by schtick, but it doesn't sound like something thats inoffensive, and I'm pretty sure its not. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this excuse, "Your not supposed to take this seriously." YES YOU ARE. But to the point where a story is both fun and engaging (like So The Drama was), this was neither. Also this episode is alot different than most KP episodes, because it tries to be epic (what with the dark sky, the characters feeling like their in a grave situation, and massive amounts of damage done to the ninja school). It's not comedic driven, if your going to use comedy in an epic, than using it to demean someone's intelligence is a big no, no. Also did it ever occur to you that this is also an Action/Adventure cartoon, not just a comedy. The reason why this episode fails is because we all knew the final showdown was gonna come down to Hana and Yono, but we the viewers never actually fear for Hana at all, because she never feels like she's in any danger. Because a friggin baby never struggles while everybody else around her does. (Make a mental note: Being in actual DANGER, and being in a dangerous situation are two WAY different things. Hana was in the latter but never the former.) Also I felt Hana was a dull character in my opinion. Why do I feel that way, let me refer to the unofficial Boyd Kirkland rule and tell you why: "Good story telling always has to begin with characters you care about and can relate to on some level. If you don't have that, who cares what their powers are, or what happens to them?"The only level Hana as a character ever worked for me was when she was foil for Ron's home life, in a mystical monkey adventure she's not interesting because she has no deep connection to the Mystical Monkey mythology like the story seems to think it does. Also being good foil for Ron's home life DOES NOT = "character worthy of killing off the show's most interesting villain, while also making him look like a joke, simply by beating him effortlessly while the characters that are far more interesting than she is (Kim, Ron, Sensei) all have to fight for their very lives." Monkey Fist was a villain that deserved alot better than this. What made him such an interesting villain, was his ambition for power that no other villain even rivals. The fact that he was a formidable foe that could hold his own and was also treated as intelligent and cunning (most of the time) made him even more interesting. Sure Shego was formidable but she doesn't have the ambition that Monkey Fist does, she seems perfectly content to be Drakken's lackey and nothing more. Monkey Fist's end being an infant jumping on his face doesn't fit the character in the slightest as being an ending. If it had been Hana actually beating Yono, and Yono taking his frustrations out on Monkey Fist by turning him too stone. I would've been a little more satisfied, because his ending would've been handled with a little bit of maturity. But instead for some reason he had to be treated as a buffoon(like most KP villains) for his ultimate send off. I could handle Hana beating him quickly in Big Bother, because Monkey Fist could live to fight another day, and he could come up with a plan to deal with Hana. But I didn't get that, instead he was treated as a joke just so Hana could look good. Once he was killed off there was no coming back, and that's why I hate Hana. Because she ruined the show's most interesting villain. In fact if I had to point to a moment where the show might have "jumped the shark", this episode would be a prime candidate. I don't find Hana to be a compelling character at all mostly because she was treated as a Mary Sue that could handle the tasks put in front of her effortlessly. Does this sound like a relatable character to you? It doesn't to me. The only thing that comes to mind for most people when they think of Hana is "ahhhhhhh she's so cute!" Being cute does not make you an interesting character. It's a good foundation to build off of (see Kim) for a character. But it's not a selling point worthy of "being the coup de grace for Monkey Fist". Does this mean I find the character totally useless, no. I think that Hana had the potential to be a great supporting character on the show, but IMO she was poorly developed and poorly written. She was just another wasted opportunity on a laundry list in the 2nd half of season 4.
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Post by kittykax on Dec 28, 2007 3:52:49 GMT -5
"annoyed sigh" I'm starting to think you have nothing better to do than put down one of the greatest Disney cartoons of the century. I don't mind if you don't like it, heck I can't stand to look at "Grande Sized Me" but I'm not going off making giant paragraphs about how bad it was. But you know, if you and Slick wanna start something like ya did in the finale review thread, I guess I can't stop you . Just remember as you can see in my sig I DO have access to large metal flags ...alright I'm kidding.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 28, 2007 17:04:02 GMT -5
Okay, Cadmus, I got to agree that you make a LOT of good points there, but still... don't you think you should try to enjoy the show for what it is? It's like you're mixing what the show is with what you expect from it, and if you're always having very high expectations for everything, you're gonna get dissapointed a lot. Seriously.
It's true that episodes like this one could have been a lot better, but hey, this is what it is and we got to accept it. Deal. 'cause it's not like we can do much about it.
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Post by kpfan5678 on Dec 28, 2007 17:55:16 GMT -5
What the heck?! I haven't been in one of these review threads for months, so I come back, and theres flaming? I wasn't dumb enough to read everything because theres so much posted, but I just have one thing to say:
RESPECT PEOPLES OPINIONS. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, WHY ARE YOU READING IT? POSTING ABOUT IT IS JUST GOING TO MAKE EVERYTHING EVEN WORSE.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 28, 2007 18:33:15 GMT -5
We just like to debate!
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Post by kittykax on Dec 29, 2007 2:33:13 GMT -5
Seriously my coach has these six-foot metal poles with like weights on the bottom so if any of you wanna start causing problems...
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Post by mike on Dec 29, 2007 2:35:48 GMT -5
big LOL .... , can you say "fact" against "belief"?
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Post by Blue on Jan 12, 2008 23:38:30 GMT -5
>:] DEBATE? COUNT ME IN! ... Wait, 6ft. metal poles with weights on the bottom? Count me out. Just discuss the episode peacefully.
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29k
Pink Sloth
Posts: 7
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Post by 29k on Jan 18, 2008 7:01:35 GMT -5
Due to work conflicting with KP times, I only caught this ep today. And wow.
This was a great ep, I loved it for so many reasons, then I realized this is a show aimed at kids and realized how dark it was. Monty was my fav character and it was sad to see him meet a 'end'.
It was also the first time I'd seen Kim and Ron kiss (Disney Channel Aussies isn't playing anything in order) and I didn't think I'd see that in a ep either.
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Post by manofevil on Feb 2, 2008 19:43:51 GMT -5
OK. As this continues to come up on other topics, I feel the need to clarify a few things. Firstly, Hana Stoppable. I believe Hana is an adoption of a plot device from the movie 'Electra'. For those of you who never saw it, and that's probably most of you as very few people saw it, the basic premise is this: An evil ninja clan is attempting to kidnap a martial arts protege whom they refer to as The Treasure and are leaving a trail of dead bodies behind them. They manage to involve Electra from the Daredevil movie and everything happens from there. I believe that Hana was always meant to be the KP universe's version of The Treasure, only her powers awake in infancy rather than adolescence- to , in my opinion, great comedic effect. ;D I believe the largest grievance Cadmus and others have with this ep is that there was no grand fight to the finish between Ron and Monkey Fist. I'm no huge MF fan myself. I first saw him in 'The Full Monkey' and I was unimpressed. I expected him to start picking fleas off himself and throwing poo at people. [takes a spartan phalanx stance] COME AND TAKE MY WEAPONS!!!! Still given the number of fans he has, I suppose I can understand the hatred of this episode. I guess it's just a Monkey Fist thing.
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Post by cadmus on Feb 2, 2008 21:51:57 GMT -5
OK. As this continues to come up on other topics, I feel the need to clarify a few things. Firstly, Hana Stoppable. I believe Hana is an adoption of a plot device from the movie 'Electra'. For those of you who never saw it, and that's probably most of you as very few people saw it, the basic premise is this: An evil ninja clan is attempting to kidnap a martial arts protege whom they refer to as The Treasure and are leaving a trail of dead bodies behind them. They manage to involve Electra from the Daredevil movie and everything happens from there. Well there's the first problem, finding inspiration in the movie Elektra. When the comedy element makes the other characters look bad, ITS NOT EFFECTIVE. Not even close, while not getting a Ron-Monkey Fist ultimate showdown did disappoint me, what I got as a constellation was absolutely terrible. My grievance is with Hana Stoppable and her ridiculously superfluous portrayal in this episode. The character is allowed to get away with way too much, and people justify her characterization here because she's CUTE. That's really, really poor justification if you ask me. Neither Monkey Fist nor Yono were ever allowed to have the upperhand against Hana (physically or mentally). Let me repeat that, a friggin baby is never made to look vulnerable for one second, NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY SECOND. Why is Monkey Fist being sacrificed, for this crap? Even worse, everybody else(Kim, Ron, Yori, Sensei, Rufus) has to suffer just so Mary Sue Hana can come in and suddenly wow everybody and save them. That's not dramatic or effective writing, THAT'S CONTRIVED WRITING. Lastly Hana came across as a gimmick to me, rather than a character. We're never given any information about where Sensei got Hana from, or what the source of her powers are. Were just told that she's a ninja baby (as if those are common ). I felt Hana's lack of depth was disguised mostly through cheap baby moments that people easily accepted considering this cuteness as actual DEPTH when it's not even close. Thus she was a one dimensional character, a one trick pony. WITH NO DEPTH. Well there's your first problem right there. Judging his brilliance as a villain by one mediocre episode. Manofevil, you should track down Monkey Fist's debut: Monkey Fist Strikes and Exchange. With the exception of Drakken in So The Drama. His two appearances in those episodes blow every other villains' appearance's out of the water IMO. In Monkey Fist Strikes, Monkey Fist has one of, if not the show's best fight with Ron. The brilliant version of Monkey Fist, that appeared in Monkey Fist Strikes and Exchange, was presumably rolling in his grave after this terrible excuse for a dramatic showdown. This was more like a contrived showdown designed to set Hana on a pedestal above all the other characters.
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Post by NewSkool101 on Feb 3, 2008 1:10:55 GMT -5
Y'know, as horribly contrived as the Hana story arc seemed to be, it would've all fit together had they just revealed her to be Ron and Yori's secret love-child.
Granted, that'd be kinda hard to get away with on a kid's show, but it woulda worked.
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Post by Alexlayer on Feb 3, 2008 2:06:36 GMT -5
Y'know, as horribly contrived as the Hana story arc seemed to be, it would've all fit together had they just revealed her to be Ron and Yori's secret love-child. Granted, that'd be kinda hard to get away with on a kid's show, but it woulda worked. I love that idea. Hana even has enough characteristic like to make it plausible.
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Post by Blue on Feb 3, 2008 13:30:04 GMT -5
Kim and Ron are so meant for eachother. The kiss at the end was just so randomly genius.
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Post by manofevil on Feb 4, 2008 4:05:47 GMT -5
Well there's the first problem, finding inspiration in the movie Elektra. Ahhh. Can't argue that. When the comedy element makes the other characters look bad, ITS NOT EFFECTIVE. Not even close, while not getting a Ron-Monkey Fist ultimate showdown did disappoint me, what I got as a constellation was absolutely terrible. My grievance is with Hana Stoppable and her ridiculously superfluous portrayal in this episode. The character is allowed to get away with way too much, and people justify her characterization here because she's CUTE. That's really, really poor justification if you ask me. Now there's an argument I've heard many times before. I'm dating myself and going off-topic here for a bit but the first time I remember hearing it was the year after 'Star Wars-Return of the Jedi' came out. A lot of people I knew bitterly HATED the ewoks. I mean virulently HATED them. The ewoks were considered too cute and kid -oriented and a lot of otherwise rabid Star Wars fans felt they destroyed the entire movie for them. Now I realize this isn't a huge or even primary reason why you hate this episode, but I'm sensing it's a large part of it. And I just gave you another reason to hate this, didn't I?Neither Monkey Fist nor Yono were ever allowed to have the upperhand against Hana (physically or mentally). Let me repeat that, a friggin baby is never made to look vulnerable for one second, NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY SECOND. Why is Monkey Fist being sacrificed, for this crap? Hafta disagree with you there. You're sounding very much like someone who's never dealt with children of that age. A demonic entity crawls up behind behind the toddler and the toddler turns around and waves HI. There's not a parent alive whose heart doesn't stop the minute they see that. Toddlers don't see danger or feel fear on sight of anything. That's why you never NEVER leave a toddler alone for even a second, because they WILL wander out into the street and into traffic. Even worse, everybody else(Kim, Ron, Yori, Sensei, Rufus) has to suffer just so Mary Sue Hana can come in and suddenly wow everybody and save them. That's not dramatic or effective writing, THAT'S CONTRIVED WRITING. Well, I don't know if you noticed this, but contrivance is a very large part of this series. Ron, himself, has stumbled his way through far worse contrived circumstances to laughter and applause from the audience. After taking a long look at the episode today, I think the last scene with Hana, Yono, and Monkey Fist as her inheritance of the Ron factor. I realize that probably isn't good news to you. It's probably enough to turn you off to the show completely, but I really wonder if she could be a Stoppable without a huge dose of dumb luck. Lastly Hana came across as a gimmick to me, rather than a character. We're never given any information about where Sensei got Hana from, or what the source of her powers are. Were just told that she's a ninja baby (as if those are common ). Now I think this was the first place where you lost me. It was my understanding from the episode 'Big Bother'(which was the first half of this one. let's face it.) That Sensei got Han by following the same quest that Monkey Fist and Team Possible did but before them. It would have been interesting to see just how the quest led to Han. Did she just materialize in his hands? Did he find her in a stone vault and she just looked up at him and cooed. It would have been really good television. Pity they didn't do it. I felt Hana's lack of depth was disguised mostly through cheap baby moments that people easily accepted considering this cuteness as actual DEPTH when it's not even close. Thus she was a one dimensional character, a one trick pony. WITH NO DEPTH. Well she's less than a year old and has only been in two episodes. How much depth can there be? At that age she has two faces: cute and fussy, and believe me, you want cute, 'cause fussy is VERY LOUD! Well there's your first problem right there. Judging his brilliance as a villain by one mediocre episode. Manofevil, you should track down Monkey Fist's debut: Monkey Fist Strikes and Exchange. With the exception of Drakken in So The Drama. His two appearances in those episodes blow every other villains' appearance's out of the water IMO. In Monkey Fist Strikes, Monkey Fist has one of, if not the show's best fight with Ron. Now I'm afraid I have no access to most of the first season so Monkey Fist Strikes is out and in Exchange I only saw the same kind of cliched villiany that made the 60's Batman show famous. I do, however, think I saw what you were talking about when I rewatched Big Bother. In that episode. Monkey Fist was three steps ahead of Team Possible at every turn. He had them jumping through hoops for him. Drakken's done that but he always blows it. The only reason Fist lost was that someone else had already found what he was looking for. If K&R had been necessary to stop him, they clearly would have failed. Finally, I don't think Monkey Fist was defeated by others here so much as he defeated himself. All this time, he's been going out, finding magic monkey artifacts and expecting there would be no consequences. It was only a matter of time before one devoured him. I knew it the minute the Yono stepped down off that temple. The look he gave Monkey Fist wasn't 'Ah. my new master.' or even 'Ah, my next student', it was 'Ah, my next victim.' or even 'Ah, my next MEAL.' He did Monkey Fist's bidding only until Monkey Fist showed the slightest weakness and that was apparently enough to negate the deal. That's the old Demonic cliche. Make a deal with the devil and the devil betrays you. Truthfully, it was pretty much bound to happen with Monkey Fist. The fact that it didn't happen until now, is yet another contrivance. At the end of the day, even if I've successfully negated all or most of your points, it still doesn't mean you have to like the episode. And I have to thank you for showing me the other side of Monkey Fist. I always thought he was too much monkey, not enough fist. He's actually a pretty impressive strategist. If When we get a 5th season., I'm looking forward to seeing how they bring him back.
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Post by mdog on Feb 5, 2008 23:11:01 GMT -5
I liked most of the episode.. But lately I decided that the ending was a little weak (other than the kiss!!!!) I don't know... It was a little predictable. But I guess the show is predictable. The rest of the episode I thought was good, I loved the end credits.. "Ronald, did you carbo load your sister?" Lol!
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Post by cadmus on Feb 6, 2008 20:10:42 GMT -5
Now there's an argument I've heard many times before. I'm dating myself and going off-topic here for a bit but the first time I remember hearing it was the year after 'Star Wars-Return of the Jedi' came out. A lot of people I knew bitterly HATED the ewoks. I mean virulently HATED them. The ewoks were considered too cute and kid -oriented and a lot of otherwise rabid Star Wars fans felt they destroyed the entire movie for them. Now I realize this isn't a huge or even primary reason why you hate this episode, but I'm sensing it's a large part of it. Yeah but the Ewoks didn't come in and effortlessly beat the Imperial Army (from the lowest Stormtrooper right up to Darth Vader & The Emperor) WITHOUT A SCRATCH after multiple sequences where Luke, Han, Chewie, Leia, Lando, and the Droids struggled to hold on to their very lives fighting the Imperial Army, did they? I fail to see how any of that justifies Hana being allowed to effortlessly beat Monkey Fist & Yono w/out even the slightest moment of Hana even remotely feels in danger. Monkey Fist's send off was treated like a joke when this episode could've easily been in Best Episode Ever territory. Anybody who thinks Monkey Fist (or anybody else that isn't named Hana Stoppable for that matter) came out of this episode looking great, is deluding themselves from the obvious. It's not so much the contrivance that bothers me as much as who the contrivance benefits in this case. Sure characters like Ron, his Dad, etc. have all had the benefits of contrivances working in their favor. But they also had another thing in common. They as characters also had to suffer through certain hardships, or have had to suffer to some degree before they got their lucky break. Tell me one time where Hana as a character had to suffer(like Ron or anyone else has)/or was taken advantage of simply because she's an infant? NONE, she as a character was portrayed as annoyingly perfect in the role she had in a dangerous situation, and to see her come in and defeat the main antagonist's effortlessly, especially defeating Monkey Fist for good (EFFORTLESSLY) in a poignant situation just left me wondering what exactly made any of the VIP's think that THIS was even a remotely good way to kill off Monkey Fist? It also left me as a viewer reaching for the nearest alcoholic beverage to try and erase the pain (which hasn't worked yet), but that's another story for another time. This speculation is nice, but speculation doesn't add any depth to anybodies character. There's also no subtlety telling us that any of this speculation is true. When you give an INFANT supernatural powers, I think we the audience deserve an explanation as to the source of her powers. An explanation as to why the baby has such great power could've added a great deal of depth, that she was lacking. Which is why I say that she came off as more of a gimmick than an actual character. I still say the VIP's badly dropped the ball on this, and no amount of speculation or crappy fanfiction is going to change the character's status (or what the character lacks).
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Post by wolfdog72 on Apr 13, 2008 12:26:37 GMT -5
BOOYAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by cadmus on May 12, 2008 13:20:28 GMT -5
I'm beginning to wonder if the Disney Channel censors ever allowed the script to put Hana in any sort of jeopardy or not. If not then I think the entire scenario should have been reworked here.
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