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Post by ninjanaco on Apr 7, 2010 15:19:30 GMT -5
Given some of the controversy in the Misc. Shippy thread, I thought this topic should have it's own thread. What do you think about cousin romance/marriage? I began to have an interest the topic not long after starting this thread on what guy Joss should date/marry. As a joke, I put as an option "one of the tweebs;" a few people said they'd like that, and so I decided to do some research on the topic. "Aren't you just talking about incest?," you may say. At the risk of sounding Clintonian, that depends on how close you define incest. Incest between parents and/or siblings is virtually a universal taboo (the exceptions usually having to do with the purity of one's royal blood), but the various cultures of the world have varied in just how far down the family tree is defined as "too close" - in face, in some cultures of the world marrying your cousin is not only accepted, but encouraged (more on that later.) In the Judeo-Christian world, some have claimed Leviticus 18:6 (forbidding sexual relations with "near of kin") to include cousins; however, the text then goes on to list specific relations with whom you cannot sleep - cousins are never mentioned. (Also, there are a number of cousin marriages mentioned - but not condemned - in the Bible, such as Jacob and Rachel.) In fact, first cousins can wed in the Catholic Church today, provided they get dispensation. (A detailed discussion regarding Catholic Church law and cousin marriage can be found here.) (I know not everyone here's Catholic, but I am, and I'm just listing it as an example.) The common argument against relative romance is that inbreeding will inevitably lead to children with birth defects; however, an April 2002 report from the National Society of Genetic Counselors revealed that the child of two cousins has only a 4.7-6.8% chance of being born defective, as opposed to 3-4% for a child born to a normal couple. The former, however, assumes that the cousin couple's family has not had a history of frequent inbreeding. Constant relative marriages over numerous generations can lead to disasterous results. (Though, other data indicates that a little inbreeding might be good for the family's gene pool. Nevertheless, my personal advice would be that if your parents are cousins, then it would be best to date/marry outside the family tree.) As for me, well, I'd be willing to date a cousin of mine, even a first cousin; however, all the female cousins are already taken (I'd feel uncomfortable dating younger than that) and I don't want to freak my entire family out. However, if sparks fly between you and your cousin, provided the two of you are different sexes, the age difference isn't a legal issue, and you're not already hitched, then go ahead and date - maybe even marry! What do you think?
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Post by drakkenfan on Apr 7, 2010 16:26:08 GMT -5
I think there's nothing wrong with it. I'd never do it cause the idea of it seems awkweird to me, but I have no problem with people who'd want to marry their cousin, or aunt, or whatever.
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Post by savingkp on Apr 7, 2010 19:34:26 GMT -5
I won't do it. but if some where to. i wouldn't care. it's there life. they can do what ever they want. i wonder what disney would think of joss and one of the tweebs dating. *laughs at diseny* they can't do a thing plus they did say "anything is possible for a possible"
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Post by Ot@ru on Apr 7, 2010 20:08:22 GMT -5
No opinion
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Post by Captain Serge Stiles on Apr 8, 2010 0:19:50 GMT -5
LOL well I can imagine why people way back when would do it or people in smaller more middle-of-nowhere towns. Less opportunities of travel, smaller communities, less socially active places (a college, tons of working environments, hell a GAS STATION) and generally less people... They probably didn't have a choice, anyway. Not that they would go seek out their relatives on purpose, as a preference.
There's no excuse for that now. Looking into your own family is just lazy like an already made little black book, only it's big and full of family photos - there are plenty of people around and ways to get around and look. And part of the fun of marriage is merging two different families together forever into one, making it just that many branches bigger
That and it just sounds nasty to be having sex with your mom's brother's son or daughter. I mean really
"Mmmm the girl I want to date came out of their mom who came out of my grandma that's so hot"
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Post by Nightspade on Apr 8, 2010 1:18:40 GMT -5
WOW! Before I get serious I think I should take time and say that it really speaks for this place if topics like this are being created. And it's not an attempt at trolling? Rather done in a completely serious fashion? Crazysauce. [seriousbusiness]Cousin relationships aren't illegal in some states, and second-cousin relationships are (to my admittedly sparse legal knowledge) totally hakuna in the eyes of the law. Public opinion however, let's just say the public generally takes a dim view on cousin lovin.' Of course, as NinjaNaco pointed out in the beginning of the thread, the rate for birth-defects in children is much lower than it is widely believed to be while still higher than that of children born of parents from different gene pools. The rate for Second-cousins is closer to that of two people who are unrelated. I wouldn't say that there's any reason to frown upon a second cousin union on genetic grounds. First cousin? Eh, not much of one. As for the 'omg, i can only be atracted two som1 n mah fam & am therefore a perv' arguement... I wouldn't say deserves to be addressed. But I'll do it anyway. I have to agree that anyone who can only be attracted by the idea of someone sharing their blood is not right. Though it should be understood that you can't choose your family and you can't choose who you fall in love with. Now I doubt the whole world is going to say 'hey, cousin lovers, aren't they adorable?' Then start dancing with joy for the love birds, that'd just look silly. Cousin incest will likely never have much social acceptance, as many people simply cannot imagine why anyone with a right mind would want to engage in coitus with a blood relative. No matter the distance from each other in the gene pool. I can't say I really blame them, I've never seen anyone in my family in a sexual way at all. I can admit that my female cousins are attractive young ladies, but I can't really say I find them attractive. [/seriousbusiness] Though that last part could just be because I don't generally find black women appealing.
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Post by drakkenfan on Apr 8, 2010 1:39:18 GMT -5
Did any of you read that article in the news about a year ago about the woman and man who fell in love and when they tried to get married they discovered that the man was her biological father. She had been adopted as a baby. And they're fighting for the right to marry. I know it's gross... but if they want to get married who cares, really? Just let them. There was also a news story back then about a couple who found out they were biological twins (brother and sister) a few weeks after thay got married. But their relationship didn't survive finding that out. www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2008/01/11/2008-01-11_twin_brother_sister_marry_one_another.html
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Post by Captain Serge Stiles on Apr 8, 2010 1:48:59 GMT -5
I know it's gross... but if they want to get married who cares, really? Just let them. Because atleast if we make it really socially unacceptable and initially tell people it's nasty, then everyone won't be doing it left and right and even in the first post it says that you should probably not if your parents were cousins. How safe is that, knowing it can make us all disabled in the future if it got out of hand all over the place And those example stories: they didn't know beforehand. That probably happens a lot more than we think. They're just bold enough to see past how nasty it is and keep going for it without throwing everything in the past away. I, however, would gtfo out of that situation and find someone else and probably need a lot of therapy and cleansing rituals. Episode of House has something similar, but that didn't end as well.
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Post by manofevil on Apr 8, 2010 9:10:13 GMT -5
Fun Fact: Adolf Hitler's father and mother were related. I think she was his niece or grand niece.
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Post by ninjanaco on Apr 8, 2010 15:41:06 GMT -5
WOW! Before I get serious I think I should take time and say that it really speaks for this place if topics like this are being created. And it's not an attempt at trolling? Rather done in a completely serious fashion? Crazysauce. I started the topic here because it was brought up in the Misc. Shippy Thread, and I thought it would be better for the topic to have its own thread rather than clutter up the shippy thread. And when did everything become "-sauce"? That's just lame. That and it just sounds nasty to be having sex with your mom's brother's son or daughter. I mean really "Mmmm the girl I want to date came out of their mom who came out of my grandma that's so hot" You know what's nastier than that? Homosexuality. (Though that's another issue entirely.) Personally, I'd rather date a first cousin my age than an unrelated woman who was 1)old enough to be my mom or 2)young enough to be my daughter. But that's just me. Also, Serge, you seem to support current Western society's social taboo against cousin marriage. Should a person marry a non-related scumbag, as opposed to a cousin with whom he has chemistry and with whom he could have a very happy life together? Should John Adams have married someone other than Abagail? (They were third cousins?) Would Queen Victoria had been better off if she married some guy off the street rather than Albert? (Well, OK, there's some evidence that Albert was actually his mom's illegitimate child, and thus he and Victoria are more distantly related than is usually claimed, but still...) Besides, most of us are related in some way to some medieval monarch, so, generally, we're all cousins to one degree or another. Do you really want to shrink up you're dating pool that much? You also claimed that "part of the fun" of weddings was seeing two families come together; but I could conversely argue that an advantage of dating your cousin would be that there'd be no awkward "meet the parents" situation, since the parents are your aunt and uncle, you'd know them already! On that note, I should say that I am definitively against romance/sex between siblings or between parent and child (or grandparent and grandchild- sorry, Fry. ) Fun Fact: Adolf Hitler's father and mother were related. I think she was his niece or grand niece. I'm tempted to invoke Godwin's Law, but I'll just note that Albert Einstein's parents were cousins, and, as I mentioned previously, the Rothschilds apparently did pretty well with marrying inside the family; so a child of two cousins isn't necessarily destined to become a genocidal pyschopath.
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Post by Nightspade on Apr 8, 2010 20:54:05 GMT -5
You know what's nastier than that? Homosexuality. (Though that's another issue entirely.) But-then-wha, well then if it's... it's unrelated, then why-w-why did you bring it up!? NinjaNaco brought up Homosexuality in a topic about Incest! NinjaNaco says it's completely unrelated! Nightspade became confused! Nightspade is confused! Nightspade hurt himself in his confusion! Also in all your arguments why do assume the person unrelated has to be a scumbag? Are you saying that only people within the same gene pool can be decent to each other? If you're trying to say that someone shouldn't marry someone who's not a good person toward them then just say that, don't try to suggest a situation where the only options are your cousin or Billy-The-Rapist-Serial-Killer-Who-Eats-Kittens-Then-Washes-Them-Down-With-Children's-Tears. I'm not disagreeing with you, but dude I really can't say I agree with the idea that someone should marry someone simply because it's a choice between the lesser of two evils. People should marry someone not because the other person was worse, but because the legitimately love the person they picked.
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Post by Captain Serge Stiles on Apr 9, 2010 2:54:58 GMT -5
You know what's nastier than that? Homosexuality. (Though that's another issue entirely.) See, you are just talking about your own preference, wtf is the point of this thread, another opportunity to tell people you constantly eye your cousins and think about dating them? Why don't you just tell all this to your actual family and see what they think about that. Personally, I'd rather date a first cousin my age than an unrelated woman who was 1)old enough to be my mom or 2)young enough to be my daughter. But that's just me. ...And that's all that's out there. I would date a man who was old enough to be my dad. Mmm RDJ Also, Serge, you seem to support current Western society's social taboo against cousin marriage. Should a person marry a non-related scumbag, as opposed to a cousin with whom he has chemistry and with whom he could have a very happy life together? How about a non-related person with whom he has chemistry with whom he could have a very happy life together? Are people really that lazy to look at the news and see all the assholes and decide 'lol no I'm gonna just stick to my own family' Going to pass over all those examples that I already described why in my last post. Do you really want to shrink up you're dating pool that much? You're shrinking it up more by looking at your already taken cousins. You also claimed that "part of the fun" of weddings was seeing two families come together; but I could conversely argue that an advantage of dating your cousin would be that there'd be no awkward "meet the parents" situation, since the parents are your aunt and uncle, you'd know them already! Because that should be the reason to marry in the family, right. Oh noooo, meet the parents! Gosh, run away from non-related parents! Like I said, that sounds lazy. If you were actually serious about that one.
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Post by ninjanaco on Apr 9, 2010 11:30:33 GMT -5
The reference to homosexuality was, in one regard, referring to Serge's obsession with male slash. I'm tempted to level the charge of hypocrisy, but that would be inaccurate; however, I do find it odd when people who approve and condone all sorts of sexual devpravities then thunder Puritanically again cousin marriage. In that sense my reference was something of an ad hominem attack and for that, I apologize. I do have to say that there is a difference between objective morality and personal preference. I believe homosexuality to be intrinsically disordered and thus homosexual relations to be intrinsically wrong; my opposition to May-December romance is purely a personal preference so if you and someone of another generation get together - provided you're opposite genders, both adults and not married to someone else - well, I'm glad you're happy. (My comment on "that's another topic" was simply to prevent this thread from being derailed, which is somewhat ironic, as I started this thread to prevent the derailment of the Misc. Shippy Thread.) One of your biggest errors, Serge, is that you assume that simply because I think it's OK to marry a cousin, then I must think that marrying a non-cousin is not OK, or in some sense is a lesser match. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have absolutely no problem with non-cousins dating and marrying. All the crushes I've had are on non-related girls. True, there are some cousins I think are a bit attractive, but I'm not going to act on that. (I know a number of non-related women I've had crushes on are now married. Hence I have ruled them out as potential mates. Am I shrinking my dating pool by refusing to seek them?) And the cousins in my age group I've ruled out for the reasons I already mentioned. They're already taken, and given that they'd probably freak out if I suggested we date, it's not worth the effort to try. If Western society was supportive of cousin marriage, and thus I could be reasonably sure they might be receptive to the prospect, things might have been different, but given the reality of the situation, I think I'll manage. Besides, my "ideal woman" would be brown-skinned and thus would have to be at least partially outside the Northern European gene pool from which I come. As for the choice of a mate, I agree that it is ultimately up to who the person is, and not the person's pedigree or background. Let me ask you this: if two cousins fall in love, and - if their relationship is allowed to come to fruition - they could lead a happy, fulfilling life together, should they be allowed to marry, or should they be pressured, if not compelled, to "see other people?"
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Post by HAL-9000 the S.O.B. on Apr 9, 2010 19:34:23 GMT -5
Cousin Larry and Kim <3 , nuff said.
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Post by Captain Serge Stiles on Apr 9, 2010 19:40:40 GMT -5
The reference to homosexuality was, in one regard, referring to Serge's obsession with male slash. I'm tempted to level the charge of hypocrisy, but that would be inaccurate; however, I do find it odd when people who approve and condone all sorts of sexual devpravities then thunder Puritanically again cousin marriage. In that sense my reference was something of an ad hominem attack and for that, I apologize. Same-sex and same-family are a little different. Both can be considered depravities to certain people, sure, but something about dating in the family still doesn't seem to be all that accepted while THE GAYS ARE GONNA TAKE OVER. The same can go back to you of course, is that you condone people finding happiness in someone especially cousins, but then if they find it in the same sex or a big age difference, they can go burn in hell? OH THAT MAKES SENSE. The least you can do is word is like you're not a hypocrite. But you are, so I guess that won't work, because you can't ever want anyone to think for a moment you would accept same sex marriage. And then if you turn that around on me - I really don't care if cousins reaaaaally want to get married. They can live their nastyness on their own. If they accidentally fall in love, oops, l'chaim!. If they obsessively eye their cousins for the fact they are their cousins - creepy. Atleast homosexuals don't put any amount of percentage up on having deformed children - because they can't! Atleast they aren't harming the world in developing a line of deformed babbies. A little percentage can go a long way. It's still a noticable difference. And even then, I don't know where you get your facts. Does Jesus whisper them to your catholic blood? I do have to say that there is a difference between objective morality and personal preference. I believe homosexuality to be intrinsically disordered and thus homosexual relations to be intrinsically wrong; my opposition to May-December romance is purely a personal preference so if you and someone of another generation get together - provided you're opposite genders, both adults and not married to someone else - well, I'm glad you're happy. We all know you like to express this as often as possible, just like your cousin fetish. Natural for you to want to bring them both into the same thread. Why not kill two birds with one stone - one bird being your cousin fetish and the other your hate for homosexuals? (My comment on "that's another topic" was simply to prevent this thread from being derailed, which is somewhat ironic, as I started this thread to prevent the derailment of the Misc. Shippy Thread.) Good job. One of your biggest errors, Serge, is that you assume that simply because I think it's OK to marry a cousin, then I must think that marrying a non-cousin is not OK, or in some sense is a lesser match. Nothing could be further from the truth. One of your biggest errors, NinjaNaco, is that you assume I really care. I started posting in this thread because I thought it would be amusing, and possibly explode into hilarity. It's getting there. (I know a number of non-related women I've had crushes on are now married. Hence I have ruled them out as potential mates. Am I shrinking my dating pool by refusing to seek them?) Are you asking a dumb question in an attempt to be sassy? Yes. And the rest looks boring.
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Post by HAL-9000 the S.O.B. on Apr 9, 2010 19:45:22 GMT -5
Yawn. . .
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Post by Captain Serge Stiles on Apr 9, 2010 19:47:19 GMT -5
You and me both. I was hoping it would have exploded into something funny by now. There's still time.
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Post by The Yetimonster on Apr 9, 2010 20:00:07 GMT -5
All I've really got to say about this thread is that I find NinjaNaco's fixation on cousin sexytimes/marriage a lot more creepy and weird than *actual* cousin marriage. That, and that it reminds me of this: Jebediah Springfield: People, our search is over! On this site we shall build a new town where we can worship freely, govern justly, and grow vast fields of hemp for making rope and blankets. Shelbyville Manhattan: Yes! And marry our cousins. Jebediah Springfield: I was- wha... what are you talking about, Shelbyville? Why would we want to marry our cousins? Shelbyville Manhattan: Because they're so attractive. I... I thought that was the whole point of this journey. Jebediah Springfield: Absolutely not! Shelbyville Manhattan: I tell you, I won't live in a town that robs men of the right to marry their cousins!
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Post by Captain Serge Stiles on Apr 9, 2010 20:07:42 GMT -5
All I've really got to say about this thread is that I find NinjaNaco's fixation on cousin sexytimes/marriage a lot more creepy and weird than *actual* cousin marriage. Not gonna lie, I feel the same way. That, and that it reminds me of this: Jebediah Springfield: People, our search is over! On this site we shall build a new town where we can worship freely, govern justly, and grow vast fields of hemp for making rope and blankets. Shelbyville Manhattan: Yes! And marry our cousins. Jebediah Springfield: I was- wha... what are you talking about, Shelbyville? Why would we want to marry our cousins? Shelbyville Manhattan: Because they're so attractive. I... I thought that was the whole point of this journey. Jebediah Springfield: Absolutely not! Shelbyville Manhattan: I tell you, I won't live in a town that robs men of the right to marry their cousins! LOL
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Post by Zephyr on Apr 9, 2010 20:09:18 GMT -5
Shall pro cousin fusking people now be referred to as Shelbyvilles?
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