Reevaluation of K/R feelings (season 3)

[cloudmonet]

What if you really weren't responsible for your actions? What if some external cause made you act completely out of character, made you think thoughts you don't ordinarily think, act in ways you don't ordinarily act, in deed fight against everything you've spent most of your life fighting for?

In "Bad Boy," the hero becomes a villain, and it's not his fault.

This has been a serious moral dilemma in the past. What if you're possessed by a demon or other spirit of evil? What if you're insane and don't have a clue that mass decapitations are evil?

The general conclusion of humanity so far is that these excuses won't wash. Forget it, we don't care if the devil made you do it. Resist, or something.

But what about mad science? Someday, maybe brain control will be possible. Enter Jack Hench, last seen as supplier of Henchmen and muscle enhancing rings, with his attitudinator. What's it do? It sucks out your good and evil inclinations, rebalances them, and makes you more evil. If whoever tried to explain the moodulators in hormonal terms wants to take a crack at how this works, be my guest.

So Drakken tries it out, Kim tries to stop him from trying it out, Shego and Kim fight, there's a freaky accident, the attitudinator breaks, and blue and red glowy stuff flies around the room, settling back into Drakken and Ron, completely changing who they are in a gradual sort of way. Well, Ron seems totally changed. Drakken just seems mellow and unmotivated.

There's nothing I know of about being evil that changes skin color from pink to blue or back again, but that seems how the show creators physically represent this metamorphosis. Drakken makes cocoa-moo, Ron makes a mashed potato throwing machine. Shego learns that Ron has Drakken's evil and moves to kidnap him. Ron's turned blue and making spinning laser cannons to defeat evil cousin Sean. Shego decides to work for Ron instead of Drakken, because Ron's better at being evil. Drakken lands in the potato salad and befriends Rufus.

And-- what does all this have to do with Kim/Ron shipping?

A lot if your potential boyfriend is calling you "Kimberly Ann Possible" and threatening to blackmail the world with a variety of doomsday machines.

Kim accepts that this isn't really Ron and enlists good-Drakken's help with the attitudinator. Good or bad, Drakken's still an engineer. In becoming bad with Drakken's badness, Ron's become an engineer, for some reason a better one than Drakken. His plans are better. He completely dominates Shego.

Then, plop, the attitudinator's on Ron's head, the accident reoccurs, the blue and red glowy stuff goes back where it belongs, and for some reason, Ron and Drakken instantly change back to what they were. Ron doesn't remember what happened. He's disoriented, and Kim's witty remark, "You were having a bad day," probably doesn't explain a lot, at first. Drakken's quicker on his feet, and immediately tries to use Ron's second device to wreak havoc, only to blow up his own lair.

Pretty extreme stuff.

It all started with Kim and Ron routinely foiling Drakken and Shego, while talking about Ron's evil cousin Sean and his mysteriously carnivorous iguana, who purportedly tried to eat Rufus. Kim and Ron discuss the matter while watching a soap opera starring a "misunderstood, hottie jerk."



"What if you brought a date?" Kim asks Ron, in a moment echoing "Grudge Match."



"You and I on a date?" Kim said then, making a face of magnified disgust, and Ron protested, "It could happen!"

This time she's clearly offering herself, and all he has to do is say, "Would you be my date?" but he backs off, and Kim looks disappointed. Why doesn't she just say, "I mean me, stupid!"? Because Ron broke up with her in "Emotion Sickness." If he wants her, he has to ask. She'll hint, but won't press the issue.

So Ron goes off making an idiot of himself imitating a character from a soap opera. Friends, never, never do this. Not any character, from any soap opera.

Sean shows up with his iguana, and Ron and Rufus climb on Kim's garage roof and knock on Kim's window, begging to stay in the Possible guest room, and incidently providing a number of images showing us what a Kim/Ron affair might look like!

www.carlmillerpoems.com/kimages/bedroom 2.1.jpg[/img]







And then Wade calls with news about the villain's convention. Why, of all places, would they hold it in Middleton? Wade disguises Kim and Ron as comic book characters, and then the trouble begins.



What does all this mean, anyway? It's sort of like the folk tale of the evil witch enchanting the hero, while the heroine struggles to turn him back to his lovable self. But no kiss can break this spell. Mad science can only be countered with more mad science. The attitudinator still exists. Ron used it to suck some evil out of Sean. Drakken has one lying around in his lab in "Dimension Twist." Your true love can be turned into your arch foe by a helmet-style hairdryer with colored tubes.

And Kim does go to Ron's cousin's wedding as his date, but he's not allowed to call her that, not because he went on a rampage-- no, in a world with attitudinators, that's forgiveable-- but because he said, "We can't go on a date because we're friends."



Kim's got it bad for the Ron man, and she's doing everything short of just telling him to let him know, and he doesn't have a clue. Why won't she tell him? Cause she doesn't want to be turned down, and believes he might do just that. Ron's worries are a bit farther in the future, I guess. He doesn't think Kim'll turn him down, not at this point, he's just scared it won't work out, and that'll end the friendship. So they'll continue in this comfortable limbo of dating but not calling it that, having every part of a romantic relationship but the kissing, until Kim can't stand it anymore.

[GnuHopper]

"O villain, villain, smiling dam'ned villain!"

-- Hamlet Act I Scene 5

Sorry, just needed to show off my classical education for a minute.

Excellent analysis CM. After ignoring the issue in Bonding, the series takes another step forward in the K/R saga with Bad Boy. It's a baby step, but every little bit counts.

In "Bad Boy," the hero becomes a villain, and it's not his fault.

Ironic, considering Ron's numerous attempts at being a hero in season two. The fact that he's so good at it is a bit distressing -- if Kim & Drakken hadn't managed to reverse the process, would be world's naco supply even now be in his hands? Or is this just another sign of Ron's hidden potential, focused by Drakken's evil?

Shego and Kim fight, there's a freaky accident, the attitudinator breaks, and blue and red glowy stuff flies around the room, settling back into Drakken and Ron, completely changing who they are in a gradual sort of way. Well, Ron seems totally changed. Drakken just seems mellow and unmotivated.

The difference seems to be that Drakken is still essentially Drakken, just stripped of his negative impulses. Ron, OTOH, is possessed of both Drakken's evil AND what small measure of darkness usually lurks in his noble soul. The fact that Drakken's badness has been added to his own innate dark side (everyone's got one) might explain why Ron seems more villainous than Dr. D normally does. Drakken's missing something, while Ron's overloaded with it.

There's nothing I know of about being evil that changes skin color from pink to blue or back again, but that seems how the show creators physically represent this metamorphosis. Drakken makes cocoa-moo, Ron makes a mashed potato throwing machine.

Allow me to interject here that, while I criticized Mr. Barkin's actions in Bonding, he 's totally justified in this episode in how he deals with "Food Fighter" Ron. In fact, I thought Ron got off a little easy, all things considered.

Shego learns that Ron has Drakken's evil and moves to kidnap him. Ron's turned blue and making spinning laser cannons to defeat evil cousin Sean. Shego decides to work for Ron instead of Drakken, because Ron's better at being evil. Drakken lands in the potato salad and befriends Rufus.

(1) It's not really the focus of this thread, but Shego's rejection of good Drakken is interesting. She's willing to put up with his ineptitude, his temper tantrums, his failed schemes, his karaoke -- but turning good is the one thing she won't accept, and ends up tossing him out for a eviler partner. If Shego has hidden feelings for Drakken, it's the bad boy she definitely wants. Just as Kim struggles to retrieve "her" Ron, Shego wants "her" Drakken -- then she thinks she can be satisfied with an upgraded model...only to discover otherwise. For better or worse, Shego and Drakken appear stuck with each other.

(2) There's a tragic element to this story as well -- Drakken seems happier as his "good" self than his perpetually-frustrated "bad" self. He doesn't want to go back to his evil ways, but to save Ron that's what it takes. Poor Drakken -- but at least as a bad guy he's still got Shego.

A lot if your potential boyfriend is calling you "Kimberly Ann Possible" and threatening to blackmail the world with a variety of doomsday machines.

The episode only touches on this briefly, but if they hadn't gotten Ron back to normal could Kim have still foiled him? There's some real drama untapped in this situation -- almost a Buffy/Angelus vibe. Can Kim bring herself to fight the remnant of the boy she loves? There's enough meat on these bones to have just about justified making Bad Boy a 2-parter.

In becoming bad with Drakken's badness, Ron's become an engineer, for some reason a better one than Drakken. His plans are better. He completely dominates Shego.

Ron showed a bit of potential at mad science back in Naked Genius when he built a "doomsday machine" out of spare parts. As for Shego, perhaps this explains why she prefers Drakken to a more competant partner -- he may not win, but at least he can't push her around.

It all started with Kim and Ron routinely foiling Drakken and Shego, while talking about Ron's evil cousin Sean and his mysteriously carnivorous iguana, who purportedly tried to eat Rufus. Kim and Ron discuss the matter while watching a soap opera starring a "misunderstood, hottie jerk."

Agony County to be precise, whose protagosists are obviously meant to mirror Kim and Ron (down to similar dialogue). Just another example of the writers having fun with a little meta-commentary, like the brain switch in the soap everyone's watching during Sick Day.

"What if you brought a date?" Kim asks Ron, in a moment echoing "Grudge Match."

"You and I on a date?" Kim said then, making a face of magnified disgust, and Ron protested, "It could happen!"

This time she's clearly offering herself, and all he has to do is say, "Would you be my date?" but he backs off, and Kim looks disappointed. Why doesn't she just say, "I mean me, stupid!"? Because Ron broke up with her in "Emotion Sickness." If he wants her, he has to ask. She'll hint, but won't press the issue.

I say she's still sending mixed signals, but Ron's no better -- "awkweird" indeed. Soemtimes I think it's a minor miracle these two EVER got on the same wavelength long enough to become an actual couple.

So Ron goes off making an idiot of himself imitating a character from a soap opera. Friends, never, never do this. Not any character, from any soap opera.

You sound as if you speak from experience my friend. Perchance you tried this once? (I will confess a time in the early 90's when I spent a week channeling Agent Dale Cooper from Twin Peaks, but that's another story.)

And then Wade calls with news about the villain's convention. Why, of all places, would they hold it in Middleton?

The convention center in Retroville was booked, and the Holiday Inn at Orchid Bay was infested with wereroaches.

What does all this mean, anyway? It's sort of like the folk tale of the evil witch enchanting the hero, while the heroine struggles to turn him back to his lovable self. But no kiss can break this spell. Mad science can only be countered with more mad science. The attitudinator still exists. Ron used it to suck some evil out of Sean. Drakken has one lying around in his lab in "Dimension Twist." Your true love can be turned into your arch foe by a helmet-style hairdryer with colored tubes.

Like the moodulators, we have to wonder at how the attitudinator actually works. Does it unleash Ron's hidden dark impulses, or does it just transplant Drakken's nefarious ambitions to Ron? That Ron's rampage resembles Drakken's depradations would suggest the latter, while his desire to possess the world's supply of nacos implies the former. And if Ron's personal dark side is lose, how would he really react to Kim? In the cafeteria ("You've turned against me!") he displays his underlying belief that Kim might turn against him someday (a variant of the feelings that keep him from pursuing a romantic relationship) while later in the Lair with Shego he seems to relish taking her on and criticizing her performance -- an echo of Ron's resentmnent that she consigns him to the sidekick role in their relationship, perhaps?

And Kim does go to Ron's cousin's wedding as his date, but he's not allowed to call her that, not because he went on a rampage-- no, in a world with attitudinators, that's forgiveable-- but because he said, "We can't go on a date because we're friends."

"And yet it's not as awk-weird as feared." The mixed signals continue. Although I seriously have to wonder why Cousin Reuben let Ron attend the ceremony after how he broke up the rehersal. Maybe Sean wasn't the only one he attitude-adjusted?

Kim's got it bad for the Ron man, and she's doing everything short of just telling him to let him know, and he doesn't have a clue. Why won't she tell him? Cause she doesn't want to be turned down, and believes he might do just that.

For all her courage, resourcefulness, and intelligence, there are times Kim really is just another insecure teenaged girl. But it makes her human, and we like her better for it. Still, if she was a slightly less moral person she'd probably be flirting with other boys to get Ron's dander up. In some ways she's just too decent to play these games very well.

Ron's worries are a bit farther in the future, I guess. He doesn't think Kim'll turn him down, not at this point, he's just scared it won't work out, and that'll end the friendship. So they'll continue in this comfortable limbo of dating but not calling it that, having every part of a romantic relationship but the kissing, until Kim can't stand it anymore.

True enough, but Kim's taking a chance here too. It could just as easily have been another *girl* who came along and threw the whole sitch out of balance. In fact, that happens a few episodes hence. Kim just gets lucky that her competition flies away at the end -- what if it had been a girl attending Middleton High?

This whole situation is obviously VERY unstable. By now we're just counting the eps until the whole thing blows sky high.

GH

[GnuHopper]

D-A-M-N-E-D. Shakespeare never wrote about any "darned" villains!

GH

[cloudmonet]

Shakespeare never posted on Ron Stoppable's really neat page. Although come to think of it there was a period in his career when cursing was banned from the theater, and his plays from this time have the Elizabethan equivalents of darn, gee, and golly.

And nope, never tried emulating soap opera dudes. Just too obviously stupid, like attempting to use Wile E. Coyote's road runner catching methods.

[J2]

I just want to point out that Kim shows up at the first rehersal even though her and Ron didn't actually agree on her being "the date." Also she wearing her blue dress, the same one that she wore in Blush. Perhaps she considers this her dating dress? One more thing: knowing the trend of though for most young men, the sight of seeing Kim in a catsuit should have had a much significant reaction. Thoughts anyone?

[bDd]

Yeah, I'm so proud of myself. I sorta seconded this trigger of discussion. Well done me! Not to mention you guys as well, for chipping in.
By the way, I sorta noticed something while the two of them were watching 'Agony County'. Ron mentioned that the guy can't go with the girl. Kim adds that that would end the series.
Now, I'm not promoting Eisner's 65 Ep policy, but that was how 65 episodes of Kim Possible REALLY ended, with Kim and Ron expressing their love to each other at the prom.
Maybe the creators put that on the script on purpose.

[JuPMod]

Rehersal? That was suppose to be the reception of the wedding. The bride was in her bride's dress, so how could it be a rehersal? Food was there in both the first and second receptions, so again, if it was a just a rehersal, food wouldn't be provided.

I have to be completely in disagreement with CM's whole thing that Kim is pining for Ron from "ES" onward, and no, I'm not saying this to make anyone see things my way or anyone's way (other words, I'm not in a mood to argue/debate about it.). Kim show signs in "Bad Boy" that she does only see Ron as a friend, nothing more, or else she wouldn't be so hardcase on Ron over Ron saying "Thanks for being my date." She also was quite nervous over Ron asking her to come to the wedding with him. She wouldn't be nervous if she was really after him at this point.

So it seems I'm going to be totally opposite with CM's views from this point forward, given he and I do not see eye to eye with "ES"'s moodulator and Kim's feelings for Ron (For me, I still say the moodulator enhances feelings that are there, but Kim's still have not in any way feel love for Ron *yet* in "ES").

[senther]

bondiggitydansah said:

Now, I'm not promoting Eisner's 65 Ep policy, but that was how 65 episodes of Kim Possible REALLY ended, with Kim and Ron expressing their love to each other at the prom.
Maybe the creators put that on the script on purpose.

I've been preaching this joke for a while... Definitely a refrence to StD

[cloudmonet]

I have to be completely in disagreement with CM's whole thing that Kim is pining for Ron from "ES" onward, and no, I'm not saying this to make anyone see things my way or anyone's way (other words, I'm not in a mood to argue/debate about it.). Kim show signs in "Bad Boy" that she does only see Ron as a friend, nothing more, or else she wouldn't be so hardcase on Ron over Ron saying "Thanks for being my date." She also was quite nervous over Ron asking her to come to the wedding with him. She wouldn't be nervous if she was really after him at this point.

Well, JuPMod, either you've convinced me my interpretation is wrong, or you haven't, in which case I'm obligated to address the points you raise, to explain why I still think I'm right.

Your interpretation is also possible, but doesn't explain Kim's reaction to Yori, or how quickly and completely Kim falls into Ron's arms at the end of "So the Drama." I'm looking back to "Exchange" and even "Grudge Match," and ahead to the end, and seeing things that don't look as likely from a more "in the moment" view. My interpretation, that Kim is thinking of Ron romantically but hesitant because he seems more locked into the "just friends" thing at this point, at least has the virtue of explaining the jealing over Yori and instant acceptance of Ron's "out there, in here" offer of romance at the end.

The hardcase about the date could be because Kim doesn't want to be anything more than Ron's friend, but it could also be because she's annoyed he broke up with her in "Emotion Sickness," and carried on playing "Bad Boy" to get a date with someone else instead of asking her like she wanted him to.

Come on, JuPMod, Kim knows Ron can't just ask some random girl for a date and have much chance of success. She was using this situation to test him, to see if he was still stuck in "just friends." And of course she's nervous. And the answer, yes, Ron's stuck in "just friends." Well, in that event, if Kim goes with him to the wedding anyway, is she gonna let him casually call her his "date"? No way! Ron has to earn this.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

I don't know if Kim is "pining" over Ron, or if the two of them are just so comfortable in their relationship at this point that they don't want to risk saying the "d" word.

Kim seems quite comfortable going to a Stoppable wedding reception as Ron's "date", even though you have got to bet that Mr. Stoppable got a lot of questions as to that gorgeous redhead hanging out with his son. Even if they don't want to admit it to each other, by this point Ron and Kim are a couple in every way possible except for actually admitting it to each other and having that first ackward kiss.

What "Bad Boy" DOES do is allow them to both see the worst of each other before they get into the relationship any further. After all, when the roses and champagne finally wear out you end up with dirty underwear, dishes in the sink and burnt dinner!

Kim finds out the worst about Ron's personality when he goes right over the edge as a Bad Boy; including using her entire name over and over again. He's not appealing to her in any way, shape or form, despite her previous confession that Bad Boys appeal to her. As well he's major competition in the supervillain catagory, putting the rest of her foes to shame in the deception catagory.

Ron, for his part, finds out how competitive he really is - he can't just be A Supervillain, he has to be The Best One Evah, so he chases Shego into actually doing some hard work while working and perfecting Drakken's machine. Not bad for a fella who in the previous ep was told not to go into any career involving math! Whatever skills Ron does have make him a formidable opponent not only for Kim, but Shego and Drakken as well. He gets to see a bit of the whiny, annoyed Kim as well when she berates him over and over again for using her full name - it's personal now.

BB might be a turning factor in that they get to see the worst of each other and it turns out right in the end. Kim discovers how nasty Ron can be and Ron finds out that despite all his failings, Kim will still show up with him to a wedding reception to keep him from the kids' table.

twu luv.

ramblings off...

[Forlong]

This one opens up on Kim and Ron talking while on a mission. Oddly, they continue the conversation at Kim's house. Huh? I'm guessing that they had a lot of missions that week, and needed a nap on the way home.
So Kim and Ron are watching TV, but really are focused on each other.

Kim: What if you brought a date?
--She's really saying: Ask me out, won't you?
Ron: A date? Well, it would have the element of surprise.
--Ron's not getting it.
Ron: Unless...
--It clicked.
Ron: Not that I'm asking.
--Ron backs off. Kim has a bit of disappointment on her face.
Kim: Because we're friends...
--Kim agrees with Ron quickly. I think she was trying to cover up so Ron wouldn't feel bad. But she also realized what it felt like to be asked out by Ron. She seems more nervous than she ever was with Josh.
Ron: ...And it would be awkwierd?
Kim: That's right! Awkwierd.

Then Ron teases Kim for watching Agony County and Kim teases his right back. They still seem flirty. Ron finds out that Kim likes bad boys, and the following day he acts like a bad boy. Hmmmmmm.

Kim or Tara?
He goes after Tara in the next scene. So who is he really after? Tara is not buying his act. In fact, she's disgusted! Is Ron trying to win Tara's affection back, or trying to get Kim to 'jeal? It doesn't get the desired effect, but Kim still flirts with Ron. Yet another: hmmmmmm.

The scene where Ron climbs into Kim's room is similar to a scene in Boy Meets World involving Corry and Tapanga. I enjoyed that scene. Note how Kim smiles at Ron's little happy dance.

Zorpox and Sheela
Ron isn't happy with his disguise. Look at his face when Kim comes into the frame. He smiles, but keeps his eyes on the kimunicator (or could that be the ronunicator?). He avoids looking at Kim. Is he afraid that he'll gawk at her. Kim seems to be happy to be noticed a bit. Ron tells her that his bad boy act ain't working. Is he saying that it has no effect on Tara, or no effect on Kim? One last hmmmmmm.

Now when Ron fist turns bad, Kim doesn't fight him. She knows that her Ron is in there somewhere, and tries to reach him. The second time she faces him, she's much more serious. I wouldn't be surprised if she hugged Ron after turning of the Mega-Weather Generator. We don't see her do it, but she could have while the camera was on Drakken and Shego.

Kim agrees to go with Ron. Ron lets the "D" word slip out, but immediately corrects himself. Now, was Kim glaring because Ron said "date", or that he was correcting himself? She still seems a bit uncomfortable with saying that she's dating Ron, but look at what she says after his correction:
"Admittedly, not as awkwierd as feared."
In other words: Ask me out again, stupid.

[JuPMod]

Okay now... I like to make clear that everyone is entitled to their opinions. We're *not* here to convince anyone that he or she is wrong/right in their views. We can state our opinions, but there are times I feel people here are trying too hard to convince others that they are wrong. Let's remember that the show can be interprete in many different ways and it is indeed all in the eyes of the beholder. We're here for fun people, not to convince others this is right or wrong. Nuff said.

With that said... [JuPMod gets off soap box]

cloudmonet said:

Well, JuPMod, either you've convinced me my interpretation is wrong, or you haven't, in which case I'm obligated to address the points you raise, to explain why I still think I'm right.

Well, I did said I wasn't going to convince anyone that I was right and anyone else that they're wrong. I stated my opinions. Nothing more. I simply disagreed with you, and that didn't meant I said you were wrong.

Your interpretation is also possible, but doesn't explain Kim's reaction to Yori, or how quickly and completely Kim falls into Ron's arms at the end of "So the Drama.

CM, does it ever occur to you that Kim might start to feel something more for Ron between "ES" and "STD"? She could still consider Ron as 'best friends' in "ES" but by the time of "GF", she feel something more. It's called 'being blind'. She's blind to the fact that she does feel something more for Ron, or else she wouldn't jell like she did in "GF". People are like that, and Kim, being confuse on the way she feels regarding boys, maybe is no exception to this concept. If she really does realize she wants to take the next step with Ron, she wouldn't have allowed Bonnie to convince her she needs a 'hottie' boyfriend for the prom in "STD".

Of course, all of this is what I interpret what I saw in the show. Once again, these are opinions, not facts.

My interpretation, that Kim is thinking of Ron romantically but hesitant because he seems more locked into the "just friends"

Well, my interpretation, as I explained above, is that Kim is the one who wants to keep things as 'best friends' given what I believe what the moodulators do. Ron in "ES" just doesn't want to loose her friendship, thus why he backed off. It wasn't really her acting on her own in "ES".

This is where our differences lay. You see things differently than I regarding the moodulators thus why you will see things differently than me regarding whether Kim does have deeper feelings for Ron in "Bad Boy". I say 'No', you say 'Yes', and it all goes back to those moodulators.

"ES" is really up to the individual to see whether Kim does have deeper feelings for Ron other than 'best friends', given they never did explained in the episode how the moodulators really work. This episode, from the way I see it, is the foundation for anyone's beliefs regarding Kim and Ron's relationship for the rest of Season 3.

The hardcase about the date could be because Kim doesn't want to be anything more than Ron's friend, but it could also be because she's annoyed he broke up with her in "Emotion Sickness," and carried on playing "Bad Boy" to get a date with someone else instead of asking her like she wanted him to.

Well, that's your two cents. It can go either way as you said. Again, it goes back to what anyone believe how those blasted moodulators work in "ES" whether Kim was indeed feeling something more for Ron in that episode.

In "Bad Boy", I saw Kim not liking Ron saying the 'd' word, while you see her as being annoyed he broke up with him in "ES".

The way I see that "Not ackwierd as fear" statement was Kim saying that going out with Ron that way was not ackward as she thought. Of course, it wasn't, given they were 'unofficially' dating (going to movies, eating together at BN, etc.) long before "STD". They are used to each other, so going to the weddnig as Ron's 'date' wasn't hard for her as she imagined. (I said 'date' not date)

Come on, JuPMod, Kim knows Ron can't just ask some random girl for a date and have much chance of success. She was using this situation to test him, to see if he was still stuck in "just friends." And of course she's nervous. And the answer, yes, Ron's stuck in "just friends." Well, in that event, if Kim goes with him to the wedding anyway, is she gonna let him casually call her his "date"? No way! Ron has to earn this.

Again, this goes *way* back to what you and I believe differently in "ES", CM. I already explained above my opinions on how I interpret that scene of Kim glaring at Ron after saying the 'd' word. She is the one who is not ready to see Ron as 'boyfriend' material.

The way I see it now, if Kim *did* saw Ron as BF material, she wouldn't have that silly conversation in "STD" with her mother.

Mrs. P - "So as a friend he's okay?"
Kim - "Yeah, he's my best friend."
Mrs. P - "But he's not boyfriend material."
Kim - "Obviously!"

As I had mentioned, I believe Kim is *blind* to the fact of her deeper feelings for Ron. She still in denial that Ron is BF material, thus why she was easily pursuaded by Bonnie to have a BF in the 'food chain'. She still thought Ron was 'best friends'. This is her mother she is talking here, and I just can't see her not opening up to her if she did really thought of Ron as more than 'best friends'.

(shrug) As I said, it's up to interpretations regarding what we see in these episodes, CM. Nothing is set in stone. I certainly am not aiming to chisle any of my opinions into stone here.

[cloudmonet]

This came out sounding a more partisan than I intended, but apologies in advance, I guess I'm just a partisan, can't help it, born to debate, blah, blah, blah. Actually, I think it's great that someone disagrees with me. An unchallenged theory is usually a weak one. So on to the challenge:

The way I see it now, if Kim *did* saw Ron as BF material, she wouldn't have that silly conversation in "STD" with her mother.

Mrs. P - "So as a friend he's okay?"
Kim - "Yeah, he's my best friend."
Mrs. P - "But he's not boyfriend material."
Kim - "Obviously!"

Sure it's obvious, after several months of vain pursuit and Ron's not responding the way she wants. He's not boyfriend material cause he doesn't want to be! As well as because of his childish behavior, Bonnie's taunts, etc. This conversation won't prove one theory or another.

I maintain that Kim's almost instant acceptance of Ron as her boyfriend in Bueno Nacho headquarters shows I'm right. Could a subconscious thing lead to the same results? Possibly, but what about the jealing? What about the Ron Night disappointment?

It's usually people who see the season 3 relationship more or less the way you do that are most bothered by the "sudden" Kim/Ron romance at the end of "So the Drama." It's not really so sudden.

Yes, they have an agreement that they're just friends, but that doesn't mean that Ron didn't want more from Kim up until "Blush," or that Kim doesn't want more from Ron, more or less from "Exchange" through "Rappin Drakken." In "Team Impossible," she starts getting turned off, and by the end of Act One of "So the Drama," Ron's not boyfriend material.

[whowantstoknow]

Just one quick thing about Bad Boy:

Kim: "...a hottie diff."
Ron: "So, you like the bad boys, huh?"

Notice that Ron doesn't say "girls", but instead clearly directs his question to Kim.

[El Bissop]

A few seconds after Kim uses Agony County as a way of ending their abrupt talk about awkweirdness, she seems to give Ron one last sideways glance, then seems to look disappointed at his reassuring "we're just friends" smile. True, this could be interrupted as Kim just being disturbed by the conversation, but I'd say the expression on her face is more disappointment than unease.

Kim or Tara?
He goes after Tara in the next scene. So who is he really after? Tara is not buying his act. In fact, she's disgusted! Is Ron trying to win Tara's affection back, or trying to get Kim to 'jeal? It doesn't get the desired effect, but Kim still flirts with Ron. Yet another: hmmmmmm.

Once again we see Ron taking an idea and running with it. He doesn't focus very much, but when he does focus on something he just goes completely overboard with it. In this past this used to drive Kim nuts ("The New Ron", "Ron the Man", etc.) but now she just seems bemused.

Unlike Ron, Kim's extremely observant, and I'm sure she's noticing how Ron's going out of his way to be a "bad boy" after she mentioned that she might like guys that way. Notice the look on her face when she tells him that someone might just like him for being himself. She certainly seems to be hinting that she means her, but Ron being Ron completely misses this and decides to go badder, much to Kim's disappointment.

Later, while study Agony County for more Bad Boy moves, Ron is interrupted by Evil Cousin Sean and his Molerat Eatting Iguana. This results in one of those cartoon screams that are loud enough to be heard from space, and in a couple dozen seconds Ron is showing up at Kim's window asking to stay the night. One wonders if Ron actually lives closer to KP than we originally thought, or if Mystical Monkey Power also includes the same reality-bending travel capabilities possessed by Santa Claus (he was, after all, able to travel from Norway to Central Africa on foot in the space of several hours (the time it would presumably take Kim to take a plane there from Middleton)).



ANYWAY, one kimmuncation from Wade later, Kim and Ron are at the Middleton Expo Center cosplaying as supervillains from Wade's favorite comics. Ron tells KP he realizes his Bad Boy act ain't working (he's apparently gotten smarter and is now snapping out of his little "episodes" much more quickly now, without needing to be kidnapped by Drakken to show him the error of his ways). Kim reassures him by leading him arm-in-arm into the convention. Certainly seems flirty to me.

Of course, Kim seems somewhat less amused when Ron starts playing around with disintegration rifles. KP and Shego fight, there's some attitudinization, and Ron ends up with Drakken's badness. (Interestingly enough, when Hench is giving his attitudinator presentation, of the supervillains in attendance looks a LOT like Adrena Lynn, only with blue skin and black hair. Maybe evil IS bad for your complexion).



The Bad Boy act takes a turn for the worse, and soon Ron is building potato cannons to splatter the student body. Is he trying to get revenge against them for their treatment of him over the years, or are they just convenient guinea pigs? Certainly, the revenge angle is very Drakkenish. Next, he's blowing up in Kim's face because he thinks she's "turning against him".

if Ron's personal dark side is lose, how would he really react to Kim? In the cafeteria ("You've turned against me!") he displays his underlying belief that Kim might turn against him someday (a variant of the feelings that keep him from pursuing a romantic relationship) while later in the Lair with Shego he seems to relish taking her on and criticizing her performance -- an echo of Ron's resentmnent that she consigns him to the sidekick role in their relationship, perhaps?

That's a great analysis of the situation. At first I thought Evil Ron was totally out of character, but his behavior does sort of make sense as a manifestation of latent fears of one day losing KP (the fear of which is what's keeping him from being more than friends), coupled with resentment over people like Drakken dismissing him as just "the sidekick" (even though he's always the first person to refer to himself as such).

Anyway, pretty soon Ron is building Doomsday Devices with the best of them. As has been stated, Evil Ron acts a lot like Drakken, only much smarter and evilier. Is this because Ron has received Drakken's skills and personality on top of his evillness, or has Drakken's evil simply made Ron ambitious and given him the focus to use the talents he otherwise never uses? We know Ron can build a doomsday device from random junk ("Naked Genius"), and he actually had good instincts about villainy even as a sidekick (advising the Seniors, recommending doing an underwater lair before doing an ice fortress, approving of the Supreme One's security system, etc.) Personally, I chalk it up to Ron's natural abilities combined with finally having the will to actually use them. I figure if it was ajust a matter of Ron getting Drakken's abilities, he wouldn't be doing so much better than Drakken.

Noticeably, Good Drakken acts a lot like Ron usually does, only even more unfocused and random. Oddly enough, without his evil, Drakken manifests qualities that previously seemed exclusive to Ron, including skill with baked goods as well as the ability to actually understand and hold a two-way conversation with Rufus. This seems strange because nothing of Ron's was ever transferred to Drakken, so one has to wonder about him manifesting Ronnish behavior when he doesn't have his evil to make his blue and nutty.



Ron goes full-on Blue just in time to crash the wedding. Kim, who still has no clue what's going on, desperately pleads with him to stop the madness and return to his loveable old self (for some reason this reminds me of the soap opera, but I dunno why). Unfortunately, he's not having any of that, and even if he was Shego spirits him away before he and KP can say much of anything to each other.

just want to point out that Kim shows up at the first rehersal even though her and Ron didn't actually agree on her being "the date." Also she wearing her blue dress, the same one that she wore in Blush. Perhaps she considers this her dating dress?

Good observation. Before KP notices that Ron has gone blue, she tries to tell him something, but never gets the chance. Maybe she was gonna say that she was there for him and that the whole Bad Boy act was unnecessary. Or maybe she was just gonna tell him he was being a doofus. Who knows.

In a way, this episode is the inversion of Emotion Sickness. Kim went under the mind altering influence of mad science and ended up trying to kill Ron (twice now, if you count Twin Factor), so now it's Ron's turn to go evil on Kim. Interestingly, at no point does Evil Ron ever try to harm Kim, and at the end he's content to cuff her so she can "helplessly watch his countdown o' doom". Even Shego doesn't try to use her usual plasma tricks to fight KP. Unlike moodulated Kim, attitudinized Ron doesn't give any indications at all of feeling anything for KP, not even the usual "your skills are impressive, I'm offering you the chance to join me!" supervillain spiel.



Ultimately, Drakken manages to replicate the accident on Evil Ron just in time to save the world's supply of Nacos. I put some thought into this, and it seems as thought Drakken ends up getting Ron's evil in addition to his own original evil (because the attitudinator sucked out all the good and bad in Ron, put the good back in Ron and the bad in Drakken). Thus leaving Drakken slightly more evil, and Ron with no evil at all. Of course, since this is Ron we're talking about, it probably would make no noticeable difference.

Finally, Ron brings Kim to the wedding as his "date", as long as he doesn't call her his "date". All's more or less well, but Kim's expression indicates that Ron's still got a foot in the doghouse. Both Cloud and JuPMod offer possible explanations for Kim's hard stare.

Kim show signs in "Bad Boy" that she does only see Ron as a friend, nothing more, or else she wouldn't be so hardcase on Ron over Ron saying "Thanks for being my date."

if Kim goes with him to the wedding anyway, is she gonna let him casually call her his "date"? No way! Ron has to earn this.

[ninjanaco]

Ah, Bad Boy. While this episode is a fan favorite (it seems), I've got some problems. Mainly metaphysical - to make a somewhat long story short, my view on the nature of good and evil is "darkness is merely the abscence of light," and the way the ep describes the attitudinator contradicts this (darkness is something like light is something)...

And then there's the villians' convention. While the whole concept fits perfectly with the "villiany subculture" we've seen on the show (and will continue to see, esp. with "Evil Eye of the Bad Guy" in "Dimension Twist"), the fact that it's in the Tri-City area defies logic. Why have it in a large, public area in the middle of an American city? Wouldn't the government learn of the plan quite obviously, and send in the police/SWAT/FBI/National Guard/82nd Airborne? It'd make much more sense if the convention was held in some remote corner of the globe, like the arms market in the James Bond film Tomorrow Never Dies.

But still, this thread is about K/R, so...

I think the whole reason why Kim and Ron dating is rejected (at this moment!) is because of what happened in Emotion Sickness. (I really need to see that ep, not just read the transcript and this thread. ) Kim and Ron's realtionship (friendship, "shippy" or otherwise) had just been taken for a whirl and jolted around, and whatnot. Kim did not just fall for Ron, she went all fangirl over him, much to his dismay. Ron wondered about it all, including the fear that he and Kim in a romantic relationship would "tank." All in all, things got jolted around a bit.

Which is why, IMHO, Kim and Ron decided not to tread the territory - it would be "awkweird" for them to date and thus revive the emotional turmoil they still have yet to settle, and so decide it is better to walk on the smooth, trodden path of "best friends" rather than traverse the turbulent swamp of "shipping," "a date-date" and the like.

[J2]

I had this thought while at work today:

Ron runs over to Kim's house screaming in terror. It's the middle of the night, possibly on a schoolnight, and he's at her window. And she lets him in. He begs to stay the night. She doesn't even ask her parents. It's okay. He can have the couch.

We don't see the morning after. But I wonder if Mr. and Mrs. Possible are bothered by this? Or is Ron so much a part of the Possible family that they don't even notice anymore?

[Panther]

Well, they DID include him on their Christmas card...

[g]

do i find it weird that disney channel played emotion sickness and bad boy right next to each other? o-o

[Panther]

Well, do you?