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Post by Tim811 on Oct 12, 2005 23:58:24 GMT -5
Heh. Ron and Kim exchanging v-chips. That gives me a bad case of giggles. ;D They enjoy each other's company, they are attracted to one another, they spend all their time together as is, its just a natural progression. Definitly, with them being so comfortable with each other and best friends since age 4 I see them falling into it fast. I say they lose it before the end of summer vacation (assuming StD was the Junior prom)
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Post by J2 on Oct 13, 2005 4:50:51 GMT -5
If such an episode were ever made, we know that Kim and Ron would wait. I'm sure that's how the creators view it.
As for me, Kim and Ron have high moral and family values. And the utmost respect for each other. That's why I believe they would wait. Not for very long though. I see them getting married after high school or early college. Even dangerous missions are not means to have sex. We've seen Kim and Ron go on dangerous missions; and then date other people. Also in season 3, Kim and Ron are having lots of intimate moments together without the kissing or thoughts of having sex. In STD, they're a couple at the very end. Not because of the dangerous mission, but because they belong together.
I won't bring up religious reasons. I've seen people who do whatever they want but claim faith in God because they go to church on Sunday and read the bible. And in opposite, I've seen people live high moral lives without God or any faith.
And finally, fanfiction. Do whatever you want to with it. It's your interpretation of the characters. If you want Kim and Ron to wait like they would on a real episode, that's fine. If you want to indulge whatever sexual fantasies you have about Kim and Ron, that's fine too. Anyone who has been on this board for awhile knows that there is some strange stuff out there. For instance, Kim and Ron having sex after the prom, relationships between Kim and Bonnie, Kim and Shego, Shego and Ron, Shego and Drakken, Ron and Bonnie, Ron and Drakken...I could go on.
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Post by JuPMod on Oct 13, 2005 6:42:12 GMT -5
Just food for thought. It seems like most people have been very Ron-centric on this, but I think that if it happens it will be Kim that will push the issue. And we all know how well Ron resist the puppy dog pout. (chuckle) Is there any doubt about this? ;D Honestly, I have a gut feeling most people here know Kim doesn't feel to fit the type who would wait until marriage. She's a very free spirit person, and I'm certain she would take the lead in taking that step to the next level. No doubt she'll give hints here and there to Ron that she's willing to go all the way. And this is why this thread is Ron-centric. Most (if not all) people here have no doubts Kim doesn't mind premartial sex. It's Ron that the big question mark. Are his moral standards and/or his religious beliefs high to make him wait? Or is he the kind of guy who wouldn't mind having premartial sex if his partner doesn't mind? I have no knowledge about today's standards for men and women. Base on my parents alone, I thought most women are the waiting type while the men are the ones who couldn't wait. Then again, if the men, who don't wait, have sex, it must mean there are plenty of women who wouldn't wait either. (shrug) Anyway, as I said, Ron is the big question mark in the equation. There is no doubt about Kim, but Ron, from what we've seen on the show, could go either way. Thus why there is a 50/50 split in the poll now.
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Post by taechunsa on Oct 13, 2005 10:49:15 GMT -5
I have to say that I am very proud to be associated with the people on this board.
When I first posted this topic I was a little wary. I knew the potential problems that could arise, but I felt confident that the topic could be discussed with restraint and empathy. I am proud to say that I was correct.
J2, I don't think that anyone feels that Kim and Ron are not highly moral people. This question basically calls into question where Kim and Ron's morals lie. This is a question of ethics and what exactly Kim and Ron hold as moral. We live in a time where there is a flux in what is considered ethical and moral in sexuality.
I am not sure if anyone here is aware of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but in this psychological theory I believe that at this point in their lives Kim and Ron have reached Self-actualization. In self-actualization a person develops a system of morality that is fully internalized and independent of external authority. This is not to say that this system of morality was not shaped by external authority as it developed, but that outside moral systems do not dictate their actions.
I have found one thing in common with nearly ever post on this topic. Everyone thinks that Kim and Ron will want to have sexual relations as soon as possible. The main difference is defined by whether people think that the two will "resist" this urge. This resistance seems to thus be tied to the ethical consideration of whether premarital sex is moral or not.
An interesting discussion to be sure, and I just want to say once again that I am proud to be associated with a group of people that can discuss this topic civally and rationally.
Oh, one last comment. J2, to really discuss this topic we have to move past this being another episode. The fact of the matter is that if Kim Possible were to have another thousand episodes and detail Ron and Kim's life until they died in their hundreds the only indication that we would ever have that they ever engaged in anything even remotely sexual would be the appearance of children. This is after all a G rated Disney television show.
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Post by JuPMod on Oct 13, 2005 12:03:50 GMT -5
In self-actualization a person develops a system of morality that is fully internalized and independent of external authority. This is not to say that this system of morality was not shaped by external authority as it developed, but that outside moral systems do not dictate their actions. So what defines 'external authority' and 'outside moral systems'? The question I ask myself now is what major factors influenced Kim and Ron's moral standards? Parents no doubt play a major role in shaping a person's moral and ethical standards. Kim's parents seem, much like their daughter, free spirit people. So I'm with cloudmonet, that Mr. & Mrs. Dr. Possible were likely to have premartial sex given their personalities. Ron's parents are big unknowns to me. They maybe nice people, but I'm wondering whether they are the type who would believe in waiting until marriage before engaging in sex. The school system also IMO shapes a person's standards. Children grow up in a social structure not touch by the parents, so it comes to question what children will learn from school (both in class and from other students). We have no idea what the school taught the students regarding any forms of sex education, but the social structure of HS didn't seemed to faze much with Kim and Ron. Maybe more Ron than Kim, given he was always picked on, etc., and I know being bullied gives low self-asteem to the victims and Ron sure looks like he have a low self-asteem of himself at times. The one thing we do know that the 'food chain' status doesn't affect Kim and Ron much at all. It especially shouldn't affect them after they gotten together in "StD". So I don't think the school would have affected them much in developing their moral and ethecal standards regarding sex. Religon is another player in shaping a person's standards. It all depends on how deeply a person believe religous standards should shape his/her own standards. Kim's family doesn't look like they practice any religion, but Ron's family is Jewish. The big question is whether Ron truly believe Jewish religous standards should dictate his own. It can go either way IMO. So in the end, I come back to the same conclusion I had before. Kim is likely the one to make the first move, the question is whether Ron will accept what she wants or say they should wait until marriage. Which again goes back to what are Kim and Ron's moral standards. Kim morally seems to don't mind premartial sex. It's Ron that is the issue. Would he resist or not?
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Post by jmt2005791 on Oct 13, 2005 12:20:56 GMT -5
why is no one is giving kim any credit. let me be the first then. i think that her moral standards are just as high as ron's would be from his jewish religion. there is no way these two could have premartial sex the love each other too much to do that
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Post by bDd on Oct 13, 2005 12:43:48 GMT -5
It depends on how much they love each other, simply put. Really, too long and too big posts get me bored. I may never want to read them, even once.
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Post by taechunsa on Oct 13, 2005 14:49:32 GMT -5
So what defines 'external authority' and 'outside moral systems'? Succinctly, they are religions, parents, and society in general. To internalize a moral system requires that one analyze and question the morals that are taught. A person who blindly accepts the morals of the external authority without question is not self-actualized. It doesn’t matter if a person chooses to accept the morals of the majority or not it is the analysis and conscious decision to accept the moral because of what that person believes and feels is proper. The question I ask myself now is what major factors influenced Kim and Ron's moral standards? While this is important, I feel that a more important question is whether they internalized the external moral issue or one of their own devising. Let me tie this back to myself, since that is the person for which I can speak with the most knowledge. I was raised in a religion in which the consumption of alcohol was considered a sin. This was the religious belief, the external moral authority, with which I was raised. However, as I grew and began to question and research things I internalized this differently then the way that I was raised. I grew to feel that the interpretation of the religion in which I was raised was incorrect. I internalized not that the consumption of alcohol was morally improper but that drunkness was improper. I am very much morally opposed to drunkenness. I feel little compassion or leniency for people who commit improper acts will drunk, yet I do not feel it immoral to consume adequately small quantities of alcohol. So when I internalized my moral beliefs I did not accept that which was the norm for my primary external authority. The same could be said of both Ron and Kim, and in effect is really the question being asked. Do Ron and Kim feel that it is moral to engage in premarital sexual relations? (Actually this is the inverse of the question asked. My original question was worded in a confusingly negative way.) why is no one is giving kim any credit. let me be the first then. i think that her moral standards are just as high as ron's would be from his jewish religion. there is no way these two could have premartial sex the love each other too much to do that It is not about Kim having or not having high moral standards. I doubt that anyone feels that she doesn’t and the fact they do love each other so much is what makes this question so split. The fact is that what is moral and ethical is not universal. Two people can both be highly moral and take contradictory actions while upholding their morals. To bring this into a region that is not so highly charged let me pose the question of eating pork. Would a person eat pork? Is it fair to say that one person is highly moral because they do or do not eat pork? If a Muslim refuses to eat pork because it is morally unacceptable to do so then they are upholding their high morals. If a non-Muslim eats pork are they instantly immoral or exhibiting low morals? I don’t think so. That person has not internalized the moral that eating pork is immoral. Furthermore, and perhaps more relevant to this topic is does society hold them to be morally inadequate? In many Western societies there is no social moral stigma with eating pork. One may choose to eat pork or not and there is no prevailing societal moral feeling on the issue. The interesting thing about the United States and, if I understand correctly, many other cultures around the world is that we are currently in a state of flux concerning the prevailing moral feeling on premarital sexual relations. There are those in society who feel that it is morally improper for anyone to ever engage in any form of premarital relations for any reason, and there are those who feel that it is morally acceptable to engage in premarital relations with a person that you love. Therefore, two people could choose two different options (eat pork or don’t eat pork / engage in premarital sex with a person that they love or don’t engage in premarital sex) and still both hold high moral standards. So for those of us that feel that Kim and Ron would engage in premarital relations it is not because we think them immoral or that we do not feel that they love each other very much, it is that we (at least I) do not feel that Kim nor Ron have internalized that premarital relations with a person that they love very much is immoral. Thus they can still be highly moral people _and_ engage in premarital relations.
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Post by Tim811 on Oct 13, 2005 15:05:15 GMT -5
If such an episode were ever made, we know that Kim and Ron would wait. I'm sure that's how the creators view it. When analysing these characters shouldn't we do so by envisioning them as if they were real people and then projecting what they would do based on that and their prior behavior rather then using the cop out of "well Disney wouldn't have them do that"
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Post by bDd on Oct 13, 2005 15:18:53 GMT -5
Exactly. Good one, Tim. Although you should know these guys are just very interested in that cartoon, that's the reason for all these threads about Kim Possible in the real world.
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Post by Tim811 on Oct 13, 2005 15:31:33 GMT -5
The one thing we do know that the 'food chain' status doesn't affect Kim and Ron much at all. It especially shouldn't affect them after they gotten together in "StD". So I don't think the school would have affected them much in developing their moral and ethecal standards regarding sex. I don't think so. Kim and Bonnie have set themselves up in opposition of each other, looking down on what the other is doing. I think there are several scenes throughout the series that suggest Bonnie isn't waiting with the boys she goes out with, and this might influence Kim to act in the opposite direction.
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Post by Tim811 on Oct 13, 2005 15:33:48 GMT -5
why is no one is giving kim any credit. let me be the first then. i think that her moral standards are just as high as ron's would be from his jewish religion. there is no way these two could have premartial sex the love each other too much to do that How much they love each other has nothing to do with wether they decide to do it or not, love can be used to justify any action including waiting or not waiting
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Post by cloudmonet on Oct 13, 2005 16:31:13 GMT -5
Er, why do you think it's often called "making love"?
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Post by jmt2005791 on Oct 13, 2005 17:18:57 GMT -5
ok so i dead set i my beliefs. i was tired of reading post slamming kim's morals and i felt it was tim for someone to stand up for her
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Post by Forlong on Oct 13, 2005 17:55:17 GMT -5
I already did a thread on this subject.
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Post by Artificial Moose on Oct 13, 2005 18:08:03 GMT -5
Moose, great post. While I think that everything that you said is valid and it is very reasonable to feel the way that you do, I still do not agree. And that's all right. Makes for a variety in storytelling at any rate: if we all agreed on every aspect of those two, then all the fanfiction writers would just tell the same two or three stories over and over again. But seriously, dude, ::double chest thump, then gives V sign:: It's all good. I'd say it makes them human; God knows I ain't perfect, and I know of none who are. I'd say he'd be caught between a rock and a red-haired place, but that would be glib, and potentially in bad taste. I'd like to think that in such a situation he'd explain his hesitance and she would understand and not push the issue, but we do know how Kim is when she gets her mind set on something... The debate, of course, is would she really demand it in the first place. My arguement was Ron-centric simply because I can track down objective, outside information on what is a likely foundation for his moral code, and draw conclusions from there. The creators of the show stated explicitly that Ron was Jewish (a factor which came up on multiple occasions, c.f. "Bad Boy"), which gives a good starting point. In Kim's case we can infer a few things about what she values, what she considers right and wrong, from her actions and words in the show. However, she is a tabula rasa when it comes to what she believes. I think it was Cloud who remarked on another thread that it seems to be very easy for a viewer to see his or her own belief system in Kim, since her own is never specified. While I admit that I plotted my story the way I did primarially because of what I believe, I'd like to think that I can somewhat justify it based off of known characters traits of Ron (relatively easy, with a minimum of assumptions) and Kim (requires many assumptions, simply because of the dearth of facts available), and I'm neither of those two. And, as you point out in another post, it's good that we can discuss such things in a civilized manner, and not as uncouth barbarians.
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Post by Artificial Moose on Oct 13, 2005 18:16:48 GMT -5
I think there are several scenes throughout the series that suggest Bonnie isn't waiting with the boys she goes out with, and this might influence Kim to act in the opposite direction. This is probable, I think. At the very least after the prom, when I reckon that Kim finally sets aside the spectre of the "food chain" once and for all. Heck, if Bonnie starts ragging on 'em about it, it wouldn't surprise me if pride caused 'em to hold off, just so they wouldn't let her "win". Pride can do crazy things... P.S. I agree with you on Bonnie, and I reckon that Hirotaka learned... a great many things about America during his trip over. Number One Girlfriend indeed...
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Post by taechunsa on Oct 13, 2005 18:30:17 GMT -5
ok so i dead set i my beliefs. I think it is good to have conviction. i was tired of reading post slamming kim's morals and i felt it was tim for someone to stand up for her I just wanted to point out that I don't believe that anyone is meaning to "slam" Kim's morals. I most certainly was not. It is just that my moral values on this are different then yours. I already did a thread on this subject. Sorry, I figured that there would be, but I couldn't find it.
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Post by taechunsa on Oct 13, 2005 18:56:08 GMT -5
And that's all right. Makes for a variety in storytelling at any rate: if we all agreed on every aspect of those two, then all the fanfiction writers would just tell the same two or three stories over and over again. Amen to that. I'd say he'd be caught between a rock and a red-haired place, but that would be glib, and potentially in bad taste. :GROAN!!!: and :SNICKER: I'd like to think that in such a situation he'd explain his hesitance and she would understand and not push the issue, but we do know how Kim is when she gets her mind set on something... The debate, of course, is would she really demand it in the first place. This was more of a joke then anything. In all honesty, I do not believe that Kim would push the issue if Ron expressed any reluctance. That just isn’t her character. My arguement was Ron-centric simply because I can track down objective, outside information on what is a likely foundation for his moral code, and draw conclusions from there. This is a reasonable reason to do so. In Kim's case we can infer a few things about what she values, what she considers right and wrong, from her actions and words in the show. However, she is a tabula rasa when it comes to what she believes. I think it was Cloud who remarked on another thread that it seems to be very easy for a viewer to see his or her own belief system in Kim, since her own is never specified. Cloud is a wise person. While I admit that I plotted my story the way I did primarially because of what I believe, I'd like to think that I can somewhat justify it based off of known characters traits of Ron (relatively easy, with a minimum of assumptions) and Kim (requires many assumptions, simply because of the dearth of facts available), and I'm neither of those two. It is a reasonable assumption. Just one that I have a hard time understanding myself. The situation in your story, which triggered this whole thing, was so extreme that I just cannot fathom the logic of their decision, and I pride myself on being able to see things from other people’s perspective. Perhaps, this is how others feel when I say that I do not think it immoral for Kim and Ron to engage in premarital relations. I just cannot fathom why two people would not want to share such a special experience with each other when there is a very real and plausible chance that either of them might not return from a mission. At the same time I had a very hard time trying to fathom that Ron and Kim were not married after six years, for much the same reason. I just see Ron and Kim living by the principle of “it is better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all” and “live for today, but plan for tomorrow”. P.S. I agree with you on Bonnie, and I reckon that Hirotaka learned... a great many things about America during his trip over. Number One Girlfriend indeed... I hear you there.
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Post by Artificial Moose on Oct 13, 2005 20:47:14 GMT -5
It is a reasonable assumption. Just one that I have a hard time understanding myself. The situation in your story, which triggered this whole thing, was so extreme that I just cannot fathom the logic of their decision, and I pride myself on being able to see things from other people’s perspective. Perhaps, this is how others feel when I say that I do not think it immoral for Kim and Ron to engage in premarital relations. I just cannot fathom why two people would not want to share such a special experience with each other when there is a very real and plausible chance that either of them might not return from a mission. At the same time I had a very hard time trying to fathom that Ron and Kim were not married after six years, for much the same reason. I just see Ron and Kim living by the principle of “it is better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all” and “live for today, but plan for tomorrow”. I can best sum up my reasoning as to why they hadn't had sex by the time of "The Fallen" by simply stating the truth: when the story that became "The First Semester" was originally conceived, them getting it on afterwards didn't even cross my mind as an outcome until we started having this discussion. I doubt not that this is a result of my own beliefs and convictions on the subject of premarital sex; I doubt there is a writer alive whose writting hasn't been affected, for good or ill, by his or her beliefs. I try not to impart too much of my own worldview to characters (or else I could never write villains!), but in some cases it is unavoidable. That being said... I chose to write them as if they believe that waiting until marriage is the right thing to do. And if you believe something is the right thing to do... then you do it. No matter if you are denigrated for it, no matter if others think you to be mad, no matter if the temptation to compromise grows to herculean levels, and no matter if others may plot against you... As best as you are able, you do the right thing, simply because doing the right thing is worthy in and of itself, regardless of the consequences of the act, and regardless of the interferences of evil men. As to why they waited so long to get married... blame plot bunnies. ;D I wanted the proposal scene to come at the end of "The Fallen", and there is not other reason for the time delay. It just felt right to put it there, since at the time "The Fallen" and "The First Semester" were the only story ideas I had, and there weren't going to be any others. But I will say that I can see your point about Kim and Ron, and I consider it to be a perfectly valid path for these two characters. That being said, it is not the path that I have chosen to take. And if you think it's unfathomable now... wait'll you see what happens at the end of the story... I'll likely be thought rather daft at that point... ;D
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