10th
Pink Sloth
Planning world domination...
Posts: 19
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Post by 10th on Dec 9, 2007 7:30:05 GMT -5
Last night i pulled myself together, now i had to see the graduation. and as expected by my self, I cried, it was that good. So good, that i need more.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 12, 2007 20:53:49 GMT -5
This finale frustrates me so much, mostly because Ron's college issue is never resolved with clarity. Whats even more frustrating is that they could've resolved it, but they didn't. All they do is a lame metaphorical ending that has no clarity, and doesn't feel informative in the slightest.
It just drives me nuts, because a better ending was in production, but got cut off by BS & P for petty reasons. I just feel like the response to having to make a new ending was handled poorly IMO. I can only describe it as watching your favorite player in your favorite team in the SuperBowl on a clear run to a winning touchdown and he stops to tie his shoe. I mean did none of the VIP's ever stop to ask themselves if this ending will feel satisfying and give satisfying closure for the fans. As I've said countless times they could've edited in a moment where Ron got his college acceptance letters from his parents at the graduation ceremony. Instead without this exposition the ending feels empty, and unsatisfying.
During Ron's entire college plot, we feel for Ron's concerns about Kim going to college w/out him, and hope that Ron's concerns are put to rest (the same way Ron's feelings for Kim come true in So The Drama). The build up is perfect but the payoff leaves alot to be desired. The payoff were told is that Ron was concerned about Kim heading to the stars w/out him. So the conclusion were given Ron and Kim riding in the car to the stars together.
Problem: Ron's concern was never about Kim literally heading to the stars. Ron just used "stars" as a metaphor for college. But the rest of the time his worrying about Kim is college, college, college, college, college, college. Until the very end as the episode ends on a satiric note by paying homage to Grease. But it doesn't answer the question thats been on the viewers mind the entire time, "Will Ron be attending college with Kim in the future?". At the end we get an answer that has no clarity whatsoever, which is even more disappointing because the original ending had this, this ending does not. The ending has no answer that can be taken at face value at all because the VIP's never considered this a problem. Which is sad because even So The Drama (the original series finale) gave us the satisfying ending everybody wanted, and best of all, the ending never went over anybody's head.
One day I hope that we get a satisfying conclusion to this answer. Whether it be a possible 5th season, a DTV release, a KP comic that gives us REAL closure, an alternate ending release on a possible KP season 4 release.
Hopefully the VIP's can hear my cry for a satisfying and real ending (along with others who might feel the same way I do) and someday we might get that because the lack of payoff at the end of this was probably one of the clumsiest things the show has ever done. Like I said, hopefully someday we get that real and satisfying ending that Kim Possible deserves.
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Post by Alexlayer on Dec 12, 2007 22:28:08 GMT -5
You're never gonna stop complaining, are you?
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Post by kittykax on Dec 13, 2007 0:08:24 GMT -5
You're never gonna stop complaining, are you? I know, the finale is over, done, nothing needs to be changed, it was fine just the way it is. seriously.
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 21, 2007 3:31:28 GMT -5
Ah.......Cadmus...Kim/Ron go to the same college. TPTB confirmed that. If they did not confirm it the finale ending would have been a little dissapointing besides the kiss. Since they confirmed it the finale was almost perfect.
I wanted them to show K/R getting married, I wanted them to show K/R making love, I wanted them to show K/R's kids, I wanted them to show K/R together on there death bed together at the age of 116, and so on.
The thing I realized and you should realize is you have to understand the audience. As TPTB said they wanted to use the College ending but disney would not let them because they thought college was to far in the core viewers futures. If disney would not let them do that then you know for sure they wouldnt do what I wanted. lol.
TPTB did everything they could to show us a guaranteed direction. Disney does have restrictions most likely. lol. I mean how much more clearly does Bob have to make it "it actually confirms that Ron was worrying over nothing. His fear was that Kim was heading to the stars and he would be stuck on earth. In the end they are heading to the stars together." That's as much of a Guarantee as Disney probably would allow. I mean just a College Ending had Disneys panties in a bunch.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 23, 2007 14:14:44 GMT -5
Ah.......Cadmus...Kim/Ron go to the same college. TPTB confirmed that. If they did not confirm it the finale ending would have been a little dissapointing besides the kiss. Since they confirmed it the finale was almost perfect. Correction only one VIP confirmed this (Steve Loter) and another producer that's higher up on the food chain (Bob Schooley) went back on their word and shot down what they said before. I don't believe that for one second, there were other ways the VIP's could've worked around the system (Disney). They could've done what I wrote in here a long time ago and I highly doubt Disney would shoot this down. To quote Bruce Wayne from Batman Beyond, "There's always another way."Which would've been fine if Bob didn't go back on his word on the ending. Basically Bob went back on his word and the very thing he first declared to be canon. And NO stars does not = college. They never flipped the switch with Ron, yet they did with Kim. I also feel that saying "The series belongs to the fans to spin any way they want now." is a total cheat, because no matter what fanfiction will never, AND I MEAN WILL NEVER, add anything of remote value to the show. If Bob didn't go back on his word I probably would've been fine, and not complaining, but he did so here I am.
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 23, 2007 19:53:19 GMT -5
Steve Loter and Bob both CONFIRMED they go to the same college. The alternate ending had them going to the same college. Therefore it's Canon. I hope you know that second quote from Bob was talking about the questions in that thread that hadnt already been answered. People were starting to bash the VIPS because of there answers to those question. So therefore to put an end to it Bob said he wasnt going to answer anymore.
The point is Kim/Ron are together forever and will never break up (TPTB have said this numerous times). They go to the same college. (It was an alternate ending. It's just as valid and Canon as the greese one*Steve Loter said this-the diretor*).
You can be dissapointed. I thought the finale could of been better but I realize The Disney Channel is not THE CW, NBC, CBS, HBO, and or etc. The stuff I wanted to see would not be possible on Disney Channel. After Bob and Steve confirmed K/R went to the same college as Canon then i really had no complaints. I would have liked marriage and kids and etc but you have to realize the audience they are going towards.
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Post by cadmus on Dec 24, 2007 15:18:20 GMT -5
Steve Loter and Bob both CONFIRMED they go to the same college. The alternate ending had them going to the same college. Therefore it's Canon. I hope you know that second quote from Bob was talking about the questions in that thread that hadnt already been answered. People were starting to bash the VIPS because of there answers to those question. So therefore to put an end to it Bob said he wasnt going to answer anymore. Did you not read the quote from Bob from above, he said he agreed with a member, that if it's not on screen, it's not canon. Which pretty much now confirms him saying Kim and Ron going to college is inconclusive, since it wasn't on screen. It doesn't matter what he used this sentence for, it was pretty much Bob changing his mind (especially since this was posted much later after the finale). Personally I felt the characters deserved better than this, but I'm not gonna lie to myself just to make myself feel better about it.
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Post by yvj on Dec 24, 2007 17:04:11 GMT -5
Narrative miscues aside. (I.E the incomplete college plot line)
The symbolic act of two people traveling to the stars together seems to me much more important to and holds much more weight to the two characters than if they had showed Ron showing up at her college.
In fact I'm finding them going to same college less and less of a big deal.
Yes Bob went back on his word to appease a few folks....Fine Yes the story structure of Graduation leaves much to be desired.....Fine
But in the end it is a minute detail in the grand scheme of things for the characters. We don't see what college Ron is going to go to but we see he's gotten over that fear of Kim moving up without him. We see Kim say that nothing will come between them.
The question the imagery of Ron/Kim flying towards space answers IMO holds more significance than the answer to what college Ron ends up in.
In fact there is almost nothing really ambiguous about the finale (you can argue D/S if you feel it necessary) but it's pretty freaking straightforward with its use of literary devices.
The problem is it just wasn't as good as it should/could have been.
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 24, 2007 17:18:48 GMT -5
Steve Loter and Bob both CONFIRMED they go to the same college. The alternate ending had them going to the same college. Therefore it's Canon. I hope you know that second quote from Bob was talking about the questions in that thread that hadnt already been answered. People were starting to bash the VIPS because of there answers to those question. So therefore to put an end to it Bob said he wasnt going to answer anymore. Did you not read the quote from Bob from above, he said he agreed with a member, that if it's not on screen, it's not canon. Which pretty much now confirms him saying Kim and Ron going to college is inconclusive, since it wasn't on screen. It doesn't matter what he used this sentence for, it was pretty much Bob changing his mind (especially since this was posted much later after the finale). Personally I felt the characters deserved better than this, but I'm not gonna lie to myself just to make myself feel better about it. I have a hard time thinking Bob lied about them going to college together in this thread. He is the creator. He stated this before he stated the other thing. It should be obvious to you that what Bob said first is what he really believes. He's the creator. Graduation was already finished. You can't change you're mind when somethings finished. Also Steve Loter is the Director. He would not have said Kim & Ron go to the same college if it wasnt the case. I loved what Loter said. He said that (Paraphrased) "We made the episode we wanted to make" and sort of too bad if you don't like it. So as YVJ said it's so Canon that they go to College Together. Steve Loter the director of the show. THE DIRECTOR said they do. Bob even said the alternate ending was Kim & Ron going to the same college. Steve said Alternate Endings are just as valid and therefore Canon. Read between the lines. It's not just fan speculation. It's from Steve Loter. Steve Loter. I'm not lieing to make myself feel better. That's what the non K/R people do who try to claim they are not together forever. That's not me. Bob's the creator. What he said in this thread trumps what he said in the other thread. This was his first reaction. It's obvious what he said was sort of him saying "starting from now on there are no right answers to any of these questions". He was not backtracking on the other things he claimed about the finale. Whoever claims K/R don't go to college together is iin Denial. I have all the evidence I need. TPTB. If you think they don't end up at the same college I guess the earth is flat. Bob states Ron was worrying over nothing and That K/R head to the stars together. The ending that was cut had Kim and Ron seemingly heading off to different colleges, only to end up at the same one in the last shot, with Ron saying something about taking the long way. It was cut for several reasons. Mostly because the execs thought that college was a little too far out of the world of their core viewers. For us, it was kind of a cheat and a bit low energy so we didn't argue the merits of that objection. What I like about the "Grease" ending is that it actually confirms that Ron was worrying over nothing. His fear was that Kim was heading to the stars and he would be stuck on earth. In the end they are heading to the stars together. We just thought the Grease staging was a funny way to show this. We wanted to go out on a smile rather than bittersweet. There's plenty of bittersweet within the rest of it.
Then Steve.... One of the alternate endings had Kim and Ron going to the same college. Well, they were only alternate because we could only have one ending. In my mind, all the alternate endings are still valid. Steve is the director. So I think his mind has more of an Idea whats Canon then a fan's view. Bob did not disagree with Steve's mind when they did the finale. The people who matter know K/R go to the same college. Those people are TPTB.If this isnt Canon, Canon doesnt exist. I mean I honestly don't know how this is debatable. Bob (The Co-Creator) and Steve (The Director) both explicitly state K/R go to the same college. Bob and Steve both explicitly stated Drakken/Shego were a couple. As I said some things were left ambigious. Those are what Bob was likely refering to with what he said what he did in that thread. Bob was not talking about the things he and steve had already answered like K/R going to the same college and D/S dating. What Bob said in that thread does not mean those answers are now false that Bob and Steve gave us in this Thread. I don't know if you are paying attention Cadmus but this is not me saying something to make me feel better. I agree with both of you the finale could have been better but everything TPTB claimed has always been true. They stated K/R will be together forever and they will never break up. This was at the gargoyles convention pryor to season 4. This is also evidence that they go to college together. Canon does not have to be seen on screen. It can be on screen or something TPTP say for example "K/R Will be together forever" "D/S are a couple", "K/R go to the same college." Cadmus I just saw how you said since Steve is lower on the foodchain then Bob what Steve claims does not hold as much weight? What is that about? Steve is the Director. He would not do or say something without Bob's consent. It's obvious behind the scenes they had discussed that K/R will go to the same college. They decided on that together. It was an alternate ending. Creators and Directors work together. Bob and Mark created the characters and the premise for the show Kim Possible. Everything else was a team effort from the creators to the directors to the writers. Bob and Mark probably had the final say but what we saw through four season's on disney was a team effort. K/R go to the same college. Canon.
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Post by kittykax on Dec 24, 2007 18:38:52 GMT -5
People People, this is just silly arguing over something like this, The point is that Kim and Ron will be together forever. The show ended with K/R flying towards the moon, whatever happens afterward is the fanfic writer's choice, some will make them go to the same college, some may not, as long as they're together what does it matter?
I mean come on, is this really worth having a huge debate over?
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 24, 2007 18:53:27 GMT -5
People People, this is just silly arguing over something like this, The point is that Kim and Ron will be together forever. The show ended with K/R flying towards the moon, whatever happens afterward is the fanfic writer's choice, some will make them go to the same college, some may not, as long as they're together what does it matter? I mean come on, is this really worth having a huge debate over? It's not worth it. I'm on your side. I'm trying to get Cadmus to realize there were things every poster here probably wishes was in the finale. The thing is you can't let those one or two things cloud judgment on the whole finale. I feel it was the best that it could have been. I truly believe what Bob and Mark said about the finale in this thread. That they did everything they could have. I of course wanted to see K/R get engaged, get married, have children, I wanted to see them side by side on there deathbeds at 116. The thing is I realize these things would never be shown on disney. Them saying K/R are together forever and them going to the same college is more than enough evidence to know those things I mentioned will happen. We just won't see them. Even at the end of STD there was enough evidence of that. So yeah I agree with you Kitykax.
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Post by wallaceb on Dec 24, 2007 20:05:23 GMT -5
things will always be debatable slicknickshady, you do need to understand that, people always look at something and draw their own conclusions, and those may or may not be the same conclusions as yours. there is no need to draw out a "debate" about what someone else has posted. you can post what you think happened, but if they disagree, stop the conversation, they disagree, and they are welcome to their ideas and leave it at that.
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 24, 2007 20:42:13 GMT -5
are welcome to their ideas and leave it at that. I agree to an extent except when it comes Fundamental Truths like "The Earth Is Round", "Everybody Dies", and "K/R are Together Forever" when people debate those it really raises a red flag imo. Most things are debatable. I don't think Fundamental Truths are.
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Post by wallaceb on Dec 24, 2007 21:43:04 GMT -5
please remember, that you may regard "K/R are Together Forever" as fundamental truths, not everyone does. that is a fact, and it cannot be helped. that is what i meant when i said people have different views. they may not think Kim and Ron are together. That is their idea, and they are welcome to it, and it does not need to be debated.
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Post by NewSkool101 on Dec 25, 2007 0:38:43 GMT -5
are welcome to their ideas and leave it at that. I agree to an extent except when it comes Fundamental Truths like "The Earth Is Round", "Everybody Dies", and "K/R are Together Forever" when people debate those it really raises a red flag imo. Most things are debatable. I don't think Fundamental Truths are. Depends on whose "Fundamental Truths" they are. Centuries ago it was a fundamental truth that the Earth was flat - that didn't make it an actual truth, just one that the majority accepted. In a sense, no one ever dies because our souls make us who we are, and souls last for eternity. And technically K/R in canon ended when the series ended. A truth to you doesn't necessarily have to be a truth for everyone else. People will always choose to believe what they want.
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 25, 2007 2:15:52 GMT -5
please remember, that you may regard "K/R are Together Forever" as fundamental truths, not everyone does. that is a fact, and it cannot be helped. Who created the show Kim Possible? Bob and Mark. Who is the director? Steve Loter. Who stated K/R will be together forever and never break up and that they were meant to be from the start? Bob and Mark. I'm sorry but when it comes to the show Kim Possible only these above people and the writers matter. What they say is the only thing that matters. People can believe what they want but if the creators of the show say something that is the only possible thing. They own the charecters. The average joe does not control the charecters. TPTB do. People may not like it or want to believe what TPTB say as truth but when it comes down to it TPTB make the final call. What they say goes. It's official because the official artists want it to be official. Those people are Bob and Mark and with the help of the Director Steve Loter and the Writers that help bring the charecters to life. Steve Loter said it best......... ronstoppable.proboards89.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=villains&thread=1189221099&page=5I think that makes it clear. Look closely....he said "WE". I don't think i'm doing anything wrong here by pointing out what TPTB have stated. I'm not debating here. You can't debate what TPTB say. I guess you can but thats called denial. Just ask WarHok. I'm honestly not debating here. I see no need. I think I reference enough facts and who said them to prove it as a Fundamental Truth. Agree to disagree if you must. Life is too short to worry about what those other people choose to disregard that is stated by the official artists. I have TPTB words on my side. That's all I need. Without them there would be no Kim Possible. Those people can't just think anything they want is fact especially when all evidence points otherwise. They can talk themselves into believing what they want but it does not matter. It's not forceing others to agree with it. I just feel those people have to deal with it being the fundamental truth. I'm not saying they have to like what the creators say or that they even have to agree with it. They should at least recognize K/R being together forever as A Fundamental Truth because the people who made the characters and the show recognize it as 100% Fact. That's what I meant when saying I don't understand how it's debatable. How can something the creators set in stone be challenged? I'm not saying people can't try to debate it but it would not do anything except causing people to roll their eyes. I'm just saying the creators statements tell those people otherwise so why can't I tell them otherwise? lol. It's not like i'm saying something with no back up or evidence that makes my view 100% fact. I have TPTB words. TPTB are not average people. They created the show. If this upsets anybody they should not take it up with me, without the ammo (evidence) TPTB gave me this discussion would not be happening because I would be getting destroyed without there words. I know you are trying to as I side try to give another point of view for the other side but right now it seems like it's just me and you here. It's all good. So ahhh.....This episode is still a 5/5. The kisses are still Hot! They love each other. ok. now we are back on topic. lol.
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Post by wallaceb on Dec 25, 2007 11:17:45 GMT -5
i am fully aware of what the creators said, but you do not seem to be understanding what i am trying to say. i am trying to inform you that no matter what the creators say, and no matter what you say, some people will always look at things differently, ( i am not talking about myself here) and you have to respect their views, and not force yours on them.
as i said, you can quickly inform them of what your view is, HOWEVER if they do not agree with you, do not keep telling them that they are wrong. you have told them your view, and they disagreed. unless they agree to argue with you, there is no need to continue.
It is true what the creators said, however, that does not mean someone HAS to agree with it. they can choose to view what happens in the story any way they want. and that is their choice. if they choose to believe that Kim and Ron do not stay together that is their choice. the heart lies at the same place as the ships. people have the right to choose what ever ship they want and no one should tell them other wise.
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Post by slicknickshady on Dec 25, 2007 13:43:52 GMT -5
We should just agree to disagree then and just move on.
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Post by mike on Dec 28, 2007 8:56:40 GMT -5
LOL, that one made me ROTFL... I mean "agree to disagree"? ;D, hmmm... what can I say, that's pretty much it, but its more like "fact" and "belief"
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