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Post by Alexlayer on Jan 18, 2008 22:40:10 GMT -5
are d/s really dating the big d/s fan just wants to know please ;D The show left it ambiguously. Steve said yes. Believe what you want.
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Post by binski on Jan 19, 2008 9:49:03 GMT -5
I may have been blind but Pandaroo made an appearence in the finale? This cap struck me as possibly a metaphor for the loss of youth & innocence. In this case the toys of childhood did not gradually wear off as was the theme of Toy Story, but they were utterly crushed and destroyed. Do you think this is significant, or am I just reading too much into it?
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Post by cadmus on Jan 20, 2008 19:22:41 GMT -5
For someone who would have it much easier with just buying what he is told, I seriously got to admire your impetu, Cadmus. What I really can't understand (and would like to) is where are you trying to get with this. Are you expecting either Steve or Bob to give you an answer or something? Or just wanting to express your point of view? Both actually. Well part of the former is both me trying to seek an answer that actually feels like proper closure, and me trying to understand just what made Bob, Mark, and Steve think that, of all the on screen endings they could've done (given the circumstances) did they actually think that (what we got) was the best resolution they could've given; in terms of proper storytelling, and giving these characters an ending with dignity & clarity. I always felt the resolution to Ron's graduation drama rama should've been an ending where the viewer KNOWS (WITH CLARITY) Ron and Kim will be going to college together. Without someone having to go to Mr. Schooley, Mr. McCorkle, or Mr. Loter and asking them "Um, Mr. Producer what's gonna happen to Ron? Is he going to be going to college with Kim?" The fact that this ending was also given to us in an episode where the villains (are treated like morons) and resolutions (Ron's MMP payoff was exactly the same as all the other times) were nothing more than cliches that we've seen a million times on Kim Possible (in it's last episode mind you)just seemed to make the payoff all the more insulting, to me anyways. Especially because at the end of the day, Ron's character has no direction, we don't know where his character is going from here, and the thing is, this could've been avoided easily. Because me thinking up what's missing in the story doesn't mean squat in terms of resonance and what adds value to the show. Them giving us an actual ending has more longetivity & resonance, than them telling us to think up an ending that makes you happy. Sure I could think up an ending, but is it really going to mean something like in say 5 years from now. Let me put it this way for you Alexlayer, lets say they did to So The Drama what they did here, leaving the dance scene at the end out of the movie and (with no new episodes to come out after that) them telling fans to think up an ending suited to their tastes, and some fan just happens to think up the ending that they did use. What adds more resonance(or value) to the show(in terms of story, character, and absolute value): -The fan thinking up the ending. -Or the producers/writers actually giving us that ending. I'm not taking everything into consideration, I'm only taking into consideration what I think we should of got in terms of an actual ending.[/quote] If all the VIP's came to the agreement that Kim and Ron WILL go to college together despite what was shown on screen. Yeah I might be satisfied, whilst it might not change my mind on the finale's quality (or lack there of), it would at least satisfy me knowing that they all came to an agreement on what Kim and Ron's future SHOULD BE. Instead of different VIP's telling people what they as individuals think should be the end result. We as viewers usually watch Kim Possible (or shows created by Bob and Mark) to feed our imagination, not to be told to use your imagination. It's not that I'm against open-endedness, I feel open-endedness should only be used when done correctly. Take Wolverine, from X-Men TAS for instance. IMO he was the most interesting character in X-Men, not just because was an absolute badass, because his past was a mystery to both him and the viewers, we were only given glimpses to what made him who he is, the mysterious nature of what happened made him interesting. But the thing it never changed was the direction his character had, his character always had direction. At the end of Graduation, did Ron's character have a direction at all. The key to open-endedness is finding balance, you need to decide on what knowledge the viewer needs to know (in terms of giving the character substance) and what needs to be left to the imagination (this should only be used when this enhances the characters or the story their in, IMO the ending to Graduation doesn't do that). IMO, the only thing that should've been left open-ended is what college Kim & Ron would go to. The knowledge that both Kim & Ron would be going to the same college would've been satisfying enough, sadly we were never given this.
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Post by slicknickshady on Jan 21, 2008 0:45:09 GMT -5
are d/s really dating the big d/s fan just wants to know please ;D According to Bob and Steve they are.
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Post by kittykax on Jan 24, 2008 23:23:03 GMT -5
you know what's funny? A while back there was a thread about future K/R kisses and someone mentioned the finale and this was my reply: I'm hoping that they'll be two lip kisses... Danny Phantom got two... I got my wish ;D
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Post by mdog on Jan 26, 2008 18:53:16 GMT -5
its over. ITS OVER NOOOO WAHHHHHHHH *sniff* Im ok, just had to let that out
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Post by kittykax on Jan 26, 2008 23:37:20 GMT -5
Whoever voted "beyond sick and wrong" is beyond sick and wrong in the head
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Post by manofevil on Jan 27, 2008 0:09:15 GMT -5
Whoever voted "beyond sick and wrong" is beyond sick and wrong in the head Not if they just couldn't bear to see it end. The fact that it ended the series was just wrongsick. Nothing else though.
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Post by kittykax on Jan 27, 2008 2:38:28 GMT -5
Whoever voted "beyond sick and wrong" is beyond sick and wrong in the head Not if they just couldn't bear to see it end. The fact that it ended the series was just wrongsick. Nothing else though. Well that doesn't mean its a bad episode...
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Post by ferryport1987 on Feb 10, 2008 14:35:36 GMT -5
hey i just want to ask a really big question WHY WASN'T SHEGO AT THE CAFĂ© IN THE END CREDITS WITH ALL THE OTHER VILLAINS
because to me i think she was in the bathroom in the time of the shooting and Drakken was bored that he decided to talk to Dementor
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Post by Alexlayer on Feb 10, 2008 15:25:43 GMT -5
She was attending a wedding
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Post by ferryport1987 on Feb 10, 2008 18:27:45 GMT -5
She was attending a wedding funny...what Kim and Ron gets married or something? ahh well maybe it has got to do by the fact that she's no longer a villain and dosen't has to be with all the other villains...remember what Steve Loter said in the IRC chat last fall that Drakken will still be evil but he didn't said nothing about Shego for me i think that she is now a hero and now works with her brothers to fight crime...BUT SHE IS STILL DRAKKEN''S GIRL AND LIVES WITH HIM AS A COUPLE THEY ARE...D/S FOREVER♥
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Post by TheRonPrincesS on Feb 11, 2008 20:35:25 GMT -5
you know what's funny? A while back there was a thread about future K/R kisses and someone mentioned the finale and this was my reply: I'm hoping that they'll be two lip kisses... Danny Phantom got two... I got my wish ;D Hihihi, What a lucky.. But well, the two kisses we're romantic and amazing!! Great "Movie", if it is one.. I think it was a little short for a called "movie" T-T
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Post by lecter on Mar 3, 2008 3:09:54 GMT -5
No, they didn't say that. It reminds me of this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi0ShCvgUiIMaybe that's where they got the idea from. Although others have said it's like Avatar. Who knows - it kicked arse nonetheless. nope,its definatly more like naruto.
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Post by cadmus on Apr 20, 2008 20:38:00 GMT -5
But in the end it is a minute detail in the grand scheme of things for the characters. My problem with the lack of payoff, has more to do with how they keep hammering the point of how worried Ron is about Kim and college over and over to the point where only an informative payoff was going to work. And NO it's not a minute detail, Ron's college obsession was present for nearly 44 minutes, and then were told absolutely nothing. IMO the writing didn't go the extra mile like it should have. (The college issue, the villain presentation, and Ron's MMP payoff all spring too mind IMO of having lazy payoffs or just doing the bare minimum). But why does he get over this? We're never given a logical reason as to why he suddenly gets over this. The only logical reason he could possibly get over his college issue is if we see that he has the ability to go to the same college as Kim. She said the same thing to Ron in Bueno Nacho in part 1, and that didn't stop him from worrying did it? So how is this supposed to convince me otherwise? If Bob didn't go back on his word (for the sake of satisfying one fan's opinion, at the expense of LONG TIME FANS of the show I might add) maybe I'd be satisfied with that. But the fact that all 3 producers seem to have different views on how Kim and Ron's futures turn out. Schooley: If it's not cannon, it didn't happen. McCorkle: Future is left up to the fans, but Kim/Ron will remain together. Loter: Both Kim and Ron will attend college together. If they had come to an agreement, there wouldn't be a problem. But since there has yet to be an agreement on what Kim and Ron's future SHOULD BE. It will remain a detriment to the end result of the series.
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Post by Alexlayer on Apr 21, 2008 0:08:10 GMT -5
*sigh* Geez, Cadmus... can't you just let this die already? We don't see what college Ron is going to go to but we see he's gotten over that fear of Kim moving up without him. But why does he get over this? We're never given a logical reason as to why he suddenly gets over this. The only logical reason he could possibly get over his college issue is if we see that he has the ability to go to the same college as Kim. EVEN without being a K/R Shipper I can give a logical and valid reason for this. Ron just realized that, if his love was true and strong, then it was just silly to think that something so stupid as the lack of a college acceptance could keep him away from him. If it were for the sake of a more enclousiring finale (not that this would be what I'd like) and if it were me, I would have had Ron saying something like that he doesn't care about this whole collenge issue anymore, and that was stupid to panick over it. He loves Kim, and because of that, college acceptance or not, wherever Kim's going, he'll go with her. Fin. And I can't believe I just wrote all that...But seriously, just let go of this already!
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Post by yvj on Apr 21, 2008 1:46:16 GMT -5
*sigh* Geez, Cadmus... can't you just let this die already? But why does he get over this? We're never given a logical reason as to why he suddenly gets over this. The only logical reason he could possibly get over his college issue is if we see that he has the ability to go to the same college as Kim. EVEN without being a K/R Shipper I can give a logical and valid reason for this. Ron just realized that, if his love was true and strong, then it was just silly to think that something so stupid as the lack of a college acceptance could keep him away from him. If it were for the sake of a more enclousiring finale (not that this would be what I'd like) and if it were me, I would have had Ron saying something like that he doesn't care about this whole collenge issue anymore, and that was stupid to panick over it. He loves Kim, and because of that, college acceptance or not, wherever Kim's going, he'll go with her. Fin. And I can't believe I just wrote all that...But seriously, just let go of this already! Now I couldn't have said it better myself Bravo ;D Um Alex Ron didn't have to say that (what you brilliantly wrote ) because all that is implied in the last scenes. You're kind of describing the last sequences of the finale, though the characters didn't explicitly say so themselves. To the horror of non K/R fans it wasn't really that subtle. Again Cadmus good heavens, I agree the college plot was in the strictest sense of story telling unresolved. In addition I would have very much liked to see them end up at the same college. But really Ron unlocked uber powers, saved the world and Kim reassured him about the future in more than one instance in the finale, to the point where they're flying into the sky with their lips locked. The real question to ask, is why would the college issue be a big deal to Ron by the time he bumps off the Lowardians? Maybe the point is that the college issue is not a big deal and in fact doesn't matter. Do you really need the answer to a question that has been rendered irrelevant? It never really matter in the grand scheme of their lives and he was again childishly making a mountain out of a molehill. That's what Ron figured at the end, which was his "growing up" moment But of course that's my thought process. Offtopic: Cadmus I'm curious but have you ever seen a Coen Bros. movie?
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Post by cadmus on Apr 21, 2008 1:57:41 GMT -5
*sigh* Geez, Cadmus... can't you just let this die already? What? And let people accept mediocrity as something good, I think not.
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Post by cadmus on Apr 21, 2008 2:40:46 GMT -5
*sigh* Geez, Cadmus... can't you just let this die already? EVEN without being a K/R Shipper I can give a logical and valid reason for this. Ron just realized that, if his love was true and strong, then it was just silly to think that something so stupid as the lack of a college acceptance could keep him away from him. If it were for the sake of a more enclousiring finale (not that this would be what I'd like) and if it were me, I would have had Ron saying something like that he doesn't care about this whole collenge issue anymore, and that was stupid to panick over it. He loves Kim, and because of that, college acceptance or not, wherever Kim's going, he'll go with her. Fin. And I can't believe I just wrote all that...But seriously, just let go of this already! Now I couldn't have said it better myself Bravo ;D Um Alex Ron didn't have to say that (what you brilliantly wrote ) because all that is implied in the last scenes. You're kind of describing the last sequences of the finale, though the characters didn't explicitly say so themselves. To the horror of non K/R fans it wasn't really that subtle. And what's to stop Ron from panicking AGAIN once he's reminded of this situation. Remember the airport scene in part 1, of the man and woman leaving each other, what's to stop Ron from worrying when he's reminded of something like that AGAIN, nothing because the college plot was unresolved, and no Mystical (God out of the machine) monkey powers are going to resolve this problem. It's not that I needed to see them AT COLLEGE. Heck they could've shown us a scene where Ron's parents give him his college acceptance letters as a graduation present, and that these same colleges are one's that Kim has applied for. LIKE I've suggested MANY TIMES. I mean for crying out loud, HOW HARD CAN IT POSSIBLY BE to record, and storyboard, 30-45 seconds of this plot resolution. Was it REALLY necessary that we HAD to show Bonnie rushing to cry in Junior's arms. You could've dumped THAT scene and added the one I suggested, EASILY. As long as the VIP's had the power to insert this scene, I'M NOT LETTING THAT PLOT GAP SLIDE. The fact that one of the God's who created Kim Possible, Bob Schooley has declared anything off screen to be not canon. Also gets on my nerves. And almost has me wishing that So The Drama would've been the end of the series, because THAT ending trumps this one. Not only that but the ending with Kim and Ron at the end at the dance was both subtle AND informative something this ending WAS NOT. -Ron didn't unlock anything, his MMP's came at the most convenient moment, JUST LIKE THEY ALWAYS HAVE. The powers were treated as a god out of the machines. It's another thing the VIP's should've handled alot better. -Kim reassured Ron MANY times throughout and yet that didn't stop him from worrying DID IT? And YET suddenly Ron gets over this, and the audience is given no organic reason as to WHY he has this change of heart. THAT resolution wasn't convincing in the slightest EITHER. Really Graduation (like Superman Returns) builds up a moment through exposition, that we the audience are not allowed to witness. Because by the time Ron comes crashing down to reality, he'll realize that he still has no way of getting to college, back to square one . And I wasn't given any exposition, story wise that THIS won't be an issue in the future. RENDERED IRRELEVANT, when was the college issue in the story irrelevant? The ending to the episode just refused to answer the question, that doesn't make it irrelevant. The writing at the end, just ARROGANTLY ASSUMES that viewers will accept the ending because the characters LOOK HAPPY, but they make no CHARACTER TRANSITIONS. And if the college issue wasn't that big a deal, than why did the writers make such a BIG DEAL out of it constantly throughout the two parter? WHERE? Show me the scene THAT SHOWS US, that Ron comes to THIS realization. There's no scene to be found like that in here. Yes I've seen one of them, but I didn't care for it. Oh fyi yvj, I meant to respond to you on this awhile ago, but never got back to it, until now.
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Post by yvj on Apr 21, 2008 3:04:18 GMT -5
Well there's really not much left for me to say that would add anything more to argument.
Because basically yes, when it comes down to it if you're going by the surface value of the show. We did not get the answer to Ron's college issue.
If you are apt to ignore the less than subtle symbolism and ignore Steve or you find it lacking, then yes the ending is flawed. That's it, it's flawed.
Here's what I can tell you. Ron stopped worrying after the following occurs
He finds out Kim is just as scared as he was She basically gives him the Disney guarantee of their future status. College becomes irrelevant when the aliens invade and Kim is put in danger. He then finds the strength to save her yadda yadda yadda.
Yes it's not Shakespeare but the foundation was there. How lacking it was is your opinion
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