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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 5:22:35 GMT -5
This is a massive undertaking, but our lost and lamented thread does live on in Googol's cache system, albeit with the page order scrambled. I have to copy and paste text, get the links for the pictures, redo the forum code.
The thread was started May 31, 2005, by taechunsa. At first we were discussing the episodes in the arbitrary order they were first aired in the US, but we soon discovered trends and story arcs that made us switch to production order.
The avatars, signiatures, and all that stuff are gone, but the dialog lives! The next post will be all of page 1 of the original thread, including the thread opener and first 14 replies. I'm changing the way I post these pages with original page 3, breaking them up into smaller chunks. Otherwise these new pages will be way too long!
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 5:23:40 GMT -5
Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) page 1, Naked Genius« Thread Started on May 31, 2005, 4:17pm » taechunsa Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 415 Location: Kansas Forlong, suggested, and I agree that a new thread for season 2 of the reevaluation would be preferable. So here is the new thread. I would prefer to stick to airing order since it is what we have done previously. That means that Naked Genius is next up. For anyone that misses an episode and we move on please feel free to comment on past episodes. However, please try to refrain from using future examples. As for Naked Genius. I didn't really see much in the way of romance here. There is definite pride shown by Kim at the end when Ron manages to solve the math problem on his own and she display a lot of concern when Drakken takes Ron. However, these are all contributable to friendship and not romance, IMHO. ——————————————————— Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,254 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #1 on May 31, 2005, 4:36pm » I'll agree with that, no romance in the episode but she is pleased for Ron when he finally cracks it, but that's almost a 'good for him' sympathy happy. ——————————————————— Miss Piratess Green Badger *** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Female Posts: 159 Location: Utah/Idaho, who knows where? « Reply #2 on May 31, 2005, 5:12pm » Yeah, it's pretty much platonic. Though one small thing is that she sort of has to reevaluate Ron in this episode. Yeah, she's mostly dubious about the genius thing, but at the same time, she didn't jump on the truth immediately. For her, something was up, and somehow Ron was showing the signs of being a genius. I don't know what I'm trying to say... it's still quite platonic, but she seemed rather willing to readjust to a "smart Ron." ————————————————— The Fan Guest « Reply #3 on May 31, 2005, 5:28pm » Early in the episode, when Kim put a comforting hand on his shoulder, he seemed pretty welcome to the gesture. ————————————————— MtnRon Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,006 « Reply #4 on May 31, 2005, 6:03pm » I agree, nothing romantic in Naked Genius. IP: Logged ——————————————— Forlong Blue Fox **** Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,225 Location: Kalamazoo « Reply #5 on May 31, 2005, 8:39pm » Kim seemed more supportive of Ron's "change of character", and Ron seems more exseptant of changing his character some. Of course, this is really just a sign of good friendship. ———————————————— Sydney Guest Re: Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) « Reply #6 on May 31, 2005, 8:44pm » "Buck up, Potential Boy. What's say we do something to take your mind off math?"  * Now, I'm pretty certain that Kim doesn't mean the gesture as anything other than for encouragement and to reassure him that she believes in him no matter what, as he'd just been really self-depricating (what with the 'nothin' but air beneath the hair' comment) and was clearly very insecure and anxious- it bothers him a little more than usual so he takes on more of a catastrophic, sarcastic spin about his shortcomings. And as she tends to be pretty observant about these things, she was able to discern that it was something a little more and hence why she puts her arm around him and tries to get his mind off the issue, to make him feel better. But I think that Ron's maybe a little surprised by the gesture- I don't think he was prepared for that and so you see his eyes sort of shift from the arm on his shoulder (eyebrow raised with a sort of surprised look) back to her. I think that its the little things like that that are what Ron means when he realizes "there's been something there for a long time" in StD (sorry can't remember the exact quote). He's known Kim most of his life, and I'm sure they've given eachother the fine share of encouraging pats on the back or hugs. And yet for some reason this time he reacts a little startledly, and maybe realizes he sort of enjoys it- you can almost for a second see him thinking that, and then probably just as quickly pushing it out of his mind per result of the "best friend thing". But the fact that in a lot of ways (other than that brief reaction) they are really comfortable with eachother comes through because her arm stays there for the rest of the scene even after Wade calls in and can see them. I could see a lot of other guy/girl friends that weren't quite at their closeness level quickly becoming self-conscious about something like that and getting awkward (ie quickly breaking apart or something like that). And Kim puts her arm around his shoulder near the end of the episode too as they're walking back from the fish (or is it fishes?) chasm, and they both seem fine, glad to be with eachother, equally relieved that the other's okay and Ron probably also in relief that he's not the failure he was starting to think he was.  Interestingly, it wasn't until they showed up at prom that they got a little self-conscious and embarassed about being "together" (because all at once "Ron and Kim" meant something entirely different to the school than it did before) in front of the crowd cheering them- but of course they were able to overcome that pretty quickly and realize that it didn't mean the end what they had before, but just a beginning of something more.  But aaah! Sorry for all the rambling. Just thought I'd share a thought I'd had. —————————————————— Forlong Blue Fox **** Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,225 Location: Kalamazoo « Reply #7 on May 31, 2005, 8:54pm » Interestingly, in that second pic, Ron half-closes his eyes contently. I'm not sure why. ————————————————— Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** member is offline Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,254 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #8 on Jun 1, 2005, 5:58am » I never noticed Ron looking at her hand, it suggests slight discomfort and suprise. Freinds are completely comfortable with each other. We're not always comfortable around people we have feelings for so this could be early suggestions of Ron's growing feelings. Just a theory. ————————————————— J Yellow Trout ** Joined: May 2005 Posts: 73 « Reply #9 on Jun 1, 2005, 11:56am » Very good Sydney. I noticed the arm thing too. But it's not till we freeze frame that it takes on a new meaning. Ron is surprised. Even though to Kim, it might not have meant anything other than support. And she does it at the end of the episode as well. She saved Ron. And Ron is able to make a laser weapon out of a refrigerator, exercise bike, and a vaccuum cleaner; showing he does have potential. This episode is more directed towards Rufus. I noticed that Kim takes on the parental role of guarding Rufus when Ron is not around. And Rufus is not just a pet that sleeps in Ron's pocket. He becomes an essential member of the team. He can go places and do things that Kim and Ron cannot. ————————————————— cloudmonet Blue Fox **** member is offline Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #10 on Jun 1, 2005, 12:47pm » I'll get to the hand-on-the-shoulder thing, but let me begin with something else: What's happened to Kim? Since season one, she's become much prettier. The picture shown above actually shows this less than most other moments in the episode. Contrary to what's written at TV Tome, her eyes are larger, not smaller, than they were in season one. Her head, while still fairly round, has some angular details, and resembles a real head more than a slightly flattened globe with a cute turned up nose. Also, she's sweet! What happened to the slightly irritating, self-centered, spunky girl of season one? ZeDe05's report of the Kim Possible panel at Enigmacon last weekend offers a simple explanation for these changes. First, Kim's appearance: "Animators had a hard time drawing KP in season one, with variations in neck length and eye size. So, the crew redesigned KP until she's easy to draw." This process resulted in a much prettier girl. And her personality: "After the first season, they got some angry responses from young male viewers because they disliked the female lead. So, they gave Ron more time in Season 2 and 3." They didn't say this, but Kim's personality, when not dealing with villains or Bonnie, becomes much sweeter. Within the show itself, there's no explanation offered for her change in appearance. I guess we're supposed to chalk that up to graceful aging. It explains why most fans are inclined to see a time gap between seasons one and two. The personality change, however, is explained. There's a character arc across the beginning of season two, but you have to watch them in production order (the order they're always shown in now) to see this. "The Ron Factor" and the pair of Zita episodes fully explain Kim as we see her in "Naked Truth." In "The Ron Factor," Kim's irritation with Ron is rather like season one, but at the end of this episode, when Gemini is actually defeated by a series of "Ron factor" "dumb skill" moves, which amazes Dr. Director, Ron gives Kim most of the credit. "You're so sweet," says Kim. After this, as far as I can remember, 1) Ron never complains again about being either the distraction or the sidekick, and 2) Kim appreciates Ron's importance to her own success. Then Ron wants Zita in "Grudge Match," and at least has her attention in "Vir-tu-Ron." Kim doesn't "jeal" the way she would much later in "Gorilla Fist," but after "Vir-tu-Ron," we never see Zita again, and here's Kim being all sweet to Ron. He's failed his algebra test, and probably just lost the girl he was trying to date. Makes more sense now, doesn't it? Now Kim's arm around Ron's shoulder. She actually does this quite a lot. I think she even did it in season one several times. Notice, Kim touches Ron, Ron doesn't touch Kim. That's how it's going to be for some time, Kim will show affection for Ron by touching him, he'll show his for her verbally. When Ron's really bothered by the state of his relationship with Kim, he'll talk about it. When Kim's really bothered, watch her face. She'll show it, but usually won't say anything. Oh yeah, she knows *exactly* what Ron's feeling in "So the Drama" while she's dating Erik, she's just hoping he'll eventually get used to the idea and accept it. Sure, there's nothing here that couldn't be "just friends" stuff, but how much would you have to change to set this episode *after* "So the Drama"? Maybe have them holding hands as they're walking together down a couple of corridors, at the top secret lab, at Drakken's "tumbling blocks" lair, and this episode would fit right into a hypothetical season four, and the "just friends" gesture would unambiguously be a girlfriend gesture. « Last Edit: Jun 1, 2005, 12:54pm by cloudmonet » IP: Logged ———————————————— Miss Piratess Green Badger *** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Female Posts: 159 Location: Utah/Idaho, who knows where? « Reply #11 on Jun 1, 2005, 1:13pm » The shoulder thing is getting at me, as well. Like has been said, it doesn't necessarily mean romantic. And yet... I never ever noticed that Ron doesn't touch her as much as she does him. And yet... I've noticed in later season 2 and season 3 that Ron is more with the touching thing. I guess that can be chalked up to "growing comfort". ———————————————— cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #12 on Jun 1, 2005, 4:06pm » The visual aids to my post above: Season 2 Kim, easier for animators to draw and somehow noticeably prettier.  * Kim's right hand just seems to like Ron's shoulder. It is there for awhile compared to the usual length of this gesture of affection.  * And, oh look, her left hand also seems to like his shoulder. Am I the only one to suspect this behavior in episode 206 is linked to the recent passage of one Zita Flores through Ron's life in episodes 203-204?  * Kim's body language in this episode keeps saying, "My Ron," whether she's ready to admit this or not. Zita, if you're passing us on the way to class, take note. Same to you, Drakken. Better not try to hurt him. My Ron. « Last Edit: Jun 1, 2005, 11:26pm by cloudmonet » ———————————————— Erased Paper Blue Fox **** member is offline Joined: May 2005 Posts: 318 « Reply #13 on Jun 1, 2005, 4:24pm » I just wanted to point out that KP looks weird when she smiles like that! ———————————————— Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,254 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #14 on Jun 1, 2005, 4:31pm » Yes she most certainly does, but not as weird as in Gottagrin's avatar, that just creeps me out (in a sort of good way, cos it's funny).
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 6:00:21 GMT -5
Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) Page 2Will Yellow Trout ** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 145 Location: Vail, IA « Reply #15 on Jun 1, 2005, 4:54pm » I think it's from the black line between the two sets of teeth. To me, it looks like it has a space between the teeth, which would look awkward. So if that line was gone, it may look better, at least thats what I think, but what do I know... « Last Edit: Jun 1, 2005, 4:55pm by Will » ———————————————— cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #16 on Jun 1, 2005, 11:41pm » You don't like Kim's pretty smile? Aaah! What's with you guys? You like a more neutral look? She's still prettier than she was in season one!  « Last Edit: Jun 1, 2005, 11:42pm by cloudmonet » ———————————————— Gottagrin Blue Fox **** Joined: Sept 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 847 « Reply #17 on Jun 1, 2005, 11:49pm » Haha! I am flattered! ;D This avatar is the best example of 'Gottagrin' I could find.  ———————————————— Will Yellow Trout ** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 145 Location: Vail, IA « Reply #18 on Jun 1, 2005, 11:55pm » I, for one had no problem with it, I'm just suggesting what an answer could be to the "creepiness" of the smile. And yes, I agree, she does look more attractive after season 1. ———————————————— Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,267 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #19 on Jun 2, 2005, 5:15am » What episode is it from? ———————————————— cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #20 on Jun 2, 2005, 2:46pm » Let's do a bit of comparison to see exactly what's changed. I've got a picture from Twin Factor (108) and Naked Genius (206).  Okay, I don't see any change in Ron's appearance, but Kim... Granted, this is kind of an off-model moment, but there's a lot of these in some season one episodes. First, Kim's heart-shaped or teardrop-shaped red hair is about the same size, relative to her torso, but her head itself is smaller. Her face looks slightly greater in height rather than greater in width. Her nose and mouth don't seem very different. (Gottagrin's Kim smile is from season one, I think from "Crush," but I'll have to check that to be sure.) Kim's eyes are bigger, both absolutely, and compared to the width of her face. They're also closer together. So now Kim's got big eyes and big hair, which must be attractive traits or they wouldn't keep showing up on the fashion magazine girls. Oh, I just noticed Ron's eyes are also slightly larger, too. ———————————————— grasshoooper Blue Fox **** Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 306 « Reply #21 on Jun 2, 2005, 3:29pm » The "gottagrin" avatar may from 1-10,Royal Pain.  ———————————————— MtnRon Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 1,008 « Reply #22 on Jun 2, 2005, 3:40pm » I like Kim's happy smile, especially when she's smiling at Ron or because of Ron. ;D IP: Logged ———————————————— Forlong Blue Fox **** Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,225 Location: Kalamazoo « Reply #23 on Jun 2, 2005, 3:48pm » Yes, Kim does seem prettier in season 2. Now, if no one has anything else to say about Naked Genius, what say we move on too Grudge Match? « Last Edit: Jun 2, 2005, 3:48pm by Forlong » ——————————————— Grudge Matchcloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #24 on Jun 2, 2005, 10:11pm » "Grudge Match" is practically Kim/Ron shippers' paradise! Don’t believe me? Let’s take a closer look. It’s pretty good for Zita/Ron shippers, too, if there are any. The Ron man’s got it goin' on. Booyah! What am I talking about re Ron and Kim? Some stuff I just noticed today while snatching visual aids. We have to watch Miss "Double Messages" Possible very carefully. It all begins when Wade hacks into the feel-good date movie of the year to get Ron to meet Kim in the lobby to go back to the robot rumble. Ron’s been buying tickets to every movie at the multiplex to try to get more than a word with Zita, the new ticket girl. "Kim needs you," Wade tells Ron, and every couple in the theater assumes this is some romantic need, and cheers him on as he leaves. The movie’s put them all in that kind of mood. So Ron's just left a whole theater full of people who think Kim's his date. Kim’s kind of grumpy, had trouble locating Ron. Ron, however, has Zita on his mind, and fears that she'll think Kim’s going with him.  Look at this picture. Zita is looking toward where Kim and Ron are about to walk, and they do look very much like a couple. Ron is not being especially off-the-wall here. "You and I, on a date?!" Kim says incredulously, making a face that she’s never made before or since. "It could happen!" Ron argues, and this time Kim gives him a look of such disdain that it’s no wonder Ron’s afraid to ask her out, ever. When he backs down, she almost smiles.  So, no way is Kim ever going to want Ron that way, right? It sure looks that way, but keep watching closely. Kim and Ron go down the elevator, arguing about "the rules" and whether Ron is "thinking too much" about what Zita may be thinking. Kim could be annoyed by Ron’s social awkwardness, or she could be jealous, maybe a little of both. They reach the door of the robot fight club, and Kim has to pick the lock. She gets out a container of kissy girl lip gloss, which Ron thinks is some sort of acid to dissolve the lock. Why not? In "Crush" such a container contained knockout gas. But no, this time it really is kissy girl lip gloss, which Kim makes a big show of applying to her lips and makes a big "mwa!" kissing gesture. Is she taunting Ron, like he’s not good enough to ever kiss those lips, or flirting with him? What do you read on this face?  I'm with Ron, I think. I'd be terrified to try to kiss her after that look of utter scorn shown above. I'm not sure what she wants. See what I mean by double messages? It gets shippier. Ron trips the alarm, the robots come to life and start attacking Kim and Ron. Ron falls into the fighting pit, gets attacked by the robot down there, and Kim pulls him out by the wrist. Kim gets the space center's robot brain and they both start running. Now something happens that I don't think I've seen any other time. Ron's already running, but Kim reaches back and holds his hand! She'll grab his hand or wrist to get him started, but I've never noticed her taking his hand when he’s already moving. And watch his face.  ———————————————— Forlong Blue Fox **** Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,225 Location: Kalamazoo « Reply #25 on Jun 2, 2005, 10:58pm » Did you notice that Kim didn't want Ron to ask Zeta out persay? She smiled when Ron first met Zeta and couldn't even form a sentance around her. Sound familiar? (anyone got a pic of that shot of Kim smiling?) Now, Kim doesn't actually tell Ron that he should ask Zeta out. In fact, she admits to Monique that she doesn't think Zeta would even say yes. But she does try to tell Ron not to live in fear of these un-writen rules. Oddly enough, these rules would state that Ron wouldn't have a prayer at getting Kim. So Kim just wanted to aid Ron's confadence. Interesting how amused Kim looks about that idea. I think she was toning down the smile because of Ron's senseless rambling. Also, as the name of Kim's lip gloss sugests, it makes kissing more enjoyable. And, as far as they knew, they'd be alone in there. So, was Kim trying to tell Ron that she'd like to make out with him? I'm not too sure. I didn't notice that before. Nice catch. « Last Edit: Jun 2, 2005, 11:00pm by Forlong » IP: Logged ———————————————— Will Yellow Trout ** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 145 Location: Vail, IA « Reply #26 on Jun 2, 2005, 11:07pm » Wow, I never noticed that there were so many clues about this forming relationship. I mean, they started to become obvious in the third season, but I hardly ever noticed any of this in the second one. ———————————————— Azmodan Azure Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 7,590 Location: California « Reply #27 on Jun 2, 2005, 11:51pm » K/R Shipper, Right here. Everybody see the K/R shipper. I watch some of the Older KP episodes just to see if I can spot some of these Shippy things. Have you noticed how Ron and Kim seem to show similar disapprovals of each other's crushes? I know, I know, I've mentioned it before. But I've been meaning to bring this up on a Reevalution thread. I'm sure we all have noted Ron's great line, "Oh, Josh mankey" from season one. (Hear me out about this) Well, Kim seems to show the same disapproval for Zita. When Ron's saying he's ready to make his move in the episode "Vir-tu-Ron" Kim seems to give a similar line "Oh, Zita Florres" (Or something to that effect). They clearly show distaste in the other's current interests (Girl/boy wise I mean). After all, there was the episode "The truth hurts" (I'm not really sure of this name) But anyway, when kim and Ron get hit with the truth ray they go about blurting the truth. Ron walks up to a girl and says, "Penny, you've got the most beautilicious eyes in the whole school." Look closely at the look Kim has when she sees and hears this situation going on. « Last Edit: Jun 2, 2005, 11:52pm by Azmodan Azure » ———————————————— J Yellow Trout ** Joined: May 2005 Posts: 73 « Reply #28 on Jun 3, 2005, 12:03am » I can't believe it's not mentioned yet! What was Kim about to talk to her father about before she was interrupted by the tweebs? One would have to be blind to not know what was on her mind. And it wasn't school, or more money for Club Banana clothes! ———————————————— grasshoooper Blue Fox **** Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 306 « Reply #29 on Jun 3, 2005, 12:55am » Are these pictures you did mention about? [unfortunately no longer available—CM] « Last Edit: Jun 3, 2005, 12:56am by grasshoooper »
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 14:54:42 GMT -5
Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) Page 3 Grudge Match cont.
Cached by Googol Aug 11, 2005, 9:19pm
loser7
Guest
« Reply #30 on Jun 3, 2005, 1:14am »
I, myself, wouldn't count the kissy lip gloss as a shippy thing. I would easily do this to one of my guy friends without even a hint of a notion that it may come off as teasing in a sexual form. The way she says 'mwah' isn't an alluring or sensual seductive mannor, but more of a friendly, playful joke. If I were to do that to one of my guy friends I'd probably honestly just be playfully mocking them for thinking it was 'acid' despite the fair reasoning that it might have been. I think the best times to catch true K/R moments is 'in action' shots, because that would be when two people aren't thinking of hiding their feelings or showing them, they're mostly just getting the Hell-o out of their, but the slight facial expressions show honest moments of joy and gladness that in a time of chaos or action would not be swept beneath a smug smile or faltered witticism.
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The Fan
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Reply #31 on Jun 3, 2005, 1:46am »
Those are some great caps.
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J
Yellow Trout
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Joined: May 2005
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« Reply #32 on Jun 3, 2005, 1:48am »
Now there's a big example of how men and women perceive things differently. If a woman makes kissy-lips at a man, he thinks she's being flirtatious. She thinks she's being cute. But it could be something else. So let's look at the possibilities.
Kim = cute, Ron = flirtatious
Kim = flirtatious, Ron = cute
Kim = cute, Ron = cute
Kim = flirtatious, Ron = flirtatious
This could be interpreted in any way, and any of them would be correct. However, this is the first time I can recall Kim putting on anything to improve her appearance in the middle of a mission, especially when Ron begins crushing on someone else.
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Zede05
Blue Fox
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Joined: Apr 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 292
Location: USA
« Reply #33 on Jun 3, 2005, 3:25am »
I sense much shippiness in this thread. ;D
Since Jabberwocky isn't around for a while, I guess I'll have to be the one to point out that you really can't look at a lot of the scenes with too much detail. I mean, I really don't think the animators had the idea that the two will eventually get together somewhere down the road when they drew these. I think the part where Ron was alluding to the possibility that they could date someday's the only reference to the future relationship in this episode. Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: Jun 3, 2005, 3:25am by Zede05 » IP: Logged
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Miss Piratess
Green Badger
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Posts: 159
Location: Utah/Idaho, who knows where?
« Reply #34 on Jun 3, 2005, 3:29am »
As was said earlier... heck, I'd do the lipgloss thing to anyone!
But the thing with this episode that really got me was Kim's reaction to Ron's worry that someone might think they're dating. (This is giving me a chance to avoid scene-examination). Just knowing Kim's personality, I think she'd be the one to joke with it a bit. Not a whole lot, for she is Kim, but say a few more sarcastic things than she said.
As a girl, the fact that she reacted with little more than an eyebrow raise shows "change the subject now" for me.
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Forlong
Blue Fox
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Posts: 1,225
Location: Kalamazoo
« Reply #35 on Jun 3, 2005, 5:23am »
[quote
Are these pictures you did mention about?[/quote]
Ah, yes. They are.
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Molon_UK
Sidekick's Sidekick
*****
Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,267
Location: Nottingham England
« Reply #36 on Jun 3, 2005, 5:44am »
Ooh, a much shippier episode. I too don't think the lip gloss counts as a shippy moment though, but these other points dfeinately do seem shippy to me.
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 14:56:05 GMT -5
cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #37 on Jun 3, 2005, 3:43pm » ZeDe05 said, "I mean, I really don't think the animators had the idea that the two will eventually get together somewhere down the road when they drew these." But on April 8, at the Middleton High Auditorium "So the Drama" Premiere chat, Bob Schooley said, "Kim and Ron were always meant to get together. Watch Crush again. It was the first episode we wrote and we thought it was pretty obvious." That's the theory that inspired Taechunsa to start these threads. We're hunting for all the clues, in all the episodes. Don't forget, this is a very carefully written show. Has to be, or we'd come up with countless anomalies looking at any aspect of it this closely. If this were live action, yes, I suppose some screencaps would catch transient expressions on actors' faces that might mislead, but here every frame is a drawing someone made. That in mind, I think the "kissy girl" frame was a carefully considered pose. I don't think this Mona Lisa smile was drawn by an in-betweener. I wouldn't make a good deal out of the incident, if it wasn't the only time we ever see her do it, if Ron wasn't just crushing on another girl, and if it wasn't "backed up" by the also unusual hand-holding thing. What are we supposed to assume Kim is thinking and feeling? Overtly, she scorns the idea of dating Ron, but it looks to me like she's got other ideas bubbling to the surface almost against her will. Remember where we are in production sequence. This gets important. "Grudge Match" is 203, followed by the other Zita episode, which we'll reach eventually. Zita disappears, and after that, we have "Two to Tutor," "Naked Genius" (see my discussion above), and several others in which Kim is unusually sweet to Ron, puts her hand on his shoulder more often, etc, the same way she acts at the end of "Gorilla Fist" when we know she's jealous. "Mr Smooth makes his move."  Monique looks amused at Ron's ineptness. Kim looks jealous. Now, regarding "The Rules," which this time out Ron's promoting and Kim's denying, it's very interesting that in "Crush" it's Kim who's effectively cowered by "I don't have a chance with that guy," thanks in some degree to Bonnie, and Ron who doesn't care, and asks anyone out, even famous singer Brittina! In "Animal Attraction," "Animalogy" offers rules, and everyone jumps on them, at least until anomalies like Kim + Junior pop up. So in "Grudge Match," Kim is implying, "You don't have a chance with me," but shouting, "There are no rules!" If Ron believes the former, he should wait another season till Kim's tied up and in despair over being fooled by a programmed synthodrone. If Ron believes the latter, the lip gloss is an invitation. "Kiss me, you blockhead!" Or, maybe not. I don't blame Ron at all for being more than hesitant. Kim is giving contadicting signals. If Ron can't tell that Yori, who's constantly touching him, praising him, and kissing his cheek, "likes him likes him," what's he to make of this? ———————————————— |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 14:57:13 GMT -5
Zede05 Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 292 Location: USA « Reply #38 on Jun 3, 2005, 4:27pm » I'm not sure how much of the actual on screen facial expressions were from the writer/storyboard people though. I don't think the storyboard artists drew the frames then told their animators to draw this "blank stare" from Kim while having her "think that Ron's cute." The instructions were probably just "draw a blank stare." That was just a general example, but you know what I meant. As for Bob's comment, I think he meant that in the general sense of storytelling (season plotlines), not anything specific. ———————————————— Gottagrin Blue Fox **** Joined: Sept 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 847 « Reply #39 on Jun 3, 2005, 5:05pm » Stunningly beauty!!! ———————————————— cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #40 on Jun 3, 2005, 5:36pm » In the absence of having actual Kim Possible storyboards (say, as DVD extras), it's impossible for me to prove my case, but I don't see how the animators in Korea could possibly know what's wanted from nothing but model sheets and simple descriptions. There must be plenty of sample drawings of key poses, possibly even an animatic reel (sort of a slide show of the storyboards with dialog track). Anyway, this is how "Futurama" did it with Rough Draft, one of the Kim Possible studios. I don't think all the features we're observing are accidental. The people high up in the production, Mark, Bob, and Steve Loter or David Block, know what Kim (and every other character) is supposed to be feeling, and gives the animators enough sample drawings to make sure they show this. Maybe if that "Art of Kim Possible" book ever happens, we'll get to see some of this stuff. Wait a minute, we already have some of this stuff! The model sheets include a number of storyboard scenes from "Bueno Nacho." For example (this is pretty big, so I'll just give the link) s2.excoboard.com/forums/2052/user/111059/162629.jpgIt's from a collection posted by Smithers at Middleton High Auditorium, misleadingly in the "Fan Art" section. ———————————————— Zede05 Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 292 Location: USA « Reply #41 on Jun 3, 2005, 6:44pm » KP uses animatics, I think all animation does now, it'd be stupid not to. That said, animatics vary in how detailed they are. Take Spiderman 2 for example, its animatics are completely movement based and less on real expressions. So I'd like to see how detailed KP's animatics are. From personal experiences though, I don't see KP's animatic being detailed enough to tell the animators the exact expression, the key expressions, yes, but not all. I think for an animation like KP, most of the expressions came from the key animators (because the expressions are pretty simple overall, so how far an eyebrow arches really changes the expression itself, and that's the key animator's job). So I guess it really depends on how much the animators knew about the future path of that relationship. I probably should have asked that at Enigmacon (heck I was talking to the head storyboard artist for 10 min  ), oh well. My guess though, since I'm assuming that most of the expressions came down to individual animators, is that a lot of the shots you're showing are "accidental." but hey, whatever works.  ———————————————— Carbon Blue Fox **** Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 682 « Reply #42 on Jun 3, 2005, 10:58pm » yeah don't confuse us with facts! J/K I love this thread  it needs some carbon-shine though..... ;D whether all the expressions were shall we say, "written in" or not, is hard to say. but they are there, and Kim and Ron being fictional characters I'd say we can use them anyway. For instance, why does Kim kind of get a jaw drop look when Ron grabs Rufus off his head and put him in his pocket in the ticket line? [image missing] I mean someone had to write that in but why? another discussion for another place since it's not hint related, but it is interesting. I don't have a good copy of Naked Genius, and I don't want to search my tapes for it, since it doesn't appear to be too controversial, so I'll let that ride. Now to watch "Grudge Match", the funniest line in the series is in this episode... « Last Edit: Jun 3, 2005, 11:10pm by Carbon » ———————————————— Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,267 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #43 on Jun 4, 2005, 6:07am » What line would that be? ———————————————— Carbon Blue Fox **** Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 682 « Reply #44 on Jun 4, 2005, 7:25am » "what did you do buy a ticket to every movie?" "No, that would be stupid!" (as Kim gives Ron a knowing smirk. she sees right through hiim.) She knows him better than that and frankly I think she is just tickled at the idea of Ron's considering them together. I don't have time to do the full evaluation today, maybe tonight when I get home (boo, real life events always getting in the way! ) « Last Edit: Jun 4, 2005, 7:29am by Carbon » |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:20:01 GMT -5
Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) page 4 Megz Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Female Posts: 224 « Reply #45 on Jun 4, 2005, 9:40am » About the picture, I'd like to say that Rufus looks like a potato in that shot. ———————————————— cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #46 on Jun 4, 2005, 12:34pm » That "dropped jaw" look is actually Kim's most common mouth expression. It's what happens when she's frowning and talking at the same time. Her mouth looks something like half circle, flat side down.  Here she is, annoyed and arguing with Ron that he's "thinking too much." I haven't posted many shots of her like this in this thread, because this look is the opposite of "shippy." But she doesn't have to be annoyed or angry for her mouth to go this way, just not smiling. It's a pose the artists use to make their simply drawn pretty girl look tough. Really, folks, the unusual and appropriate expressiveness of all the Kim Possible characters' faces is the strongest possible argument that the artists who drew them know what they're trying to do, and succeed in doing it. You can watch any episode with the sound turned off (as I do in slow motion to find this stuff) and read the characters' emotions very well. Old Walt Disney himself pushed his animators to discover all the possible ways to show thoughts and emotions way back in the mid 1930s, and Chuck Jones, whose early 1950s cartoons are a big inspiration for the Kim Possible style, was also a master of this. These modern Disney cartoons haven't forgotten the lessons. And if you're worried about the artistic abilities of our Rough Draft studios animators, consider this: they also did Futurama-- very different drawing style, different vocabulary of facial expressions, many of them on the faces of bizarre looking aliens and robots, but every one appropriate to what the character is feeling. If you don't believe what I'm saying about these screenshots, watch the episode and look for the pose. I'm trying to give honest interpretations. (Note, however, in the neighboring "shippiness or friendship pictures" thread, me and the other participants often deliberately misinterpret screenshots in the "shippiest" possible way, but that thread's just for fun.) « Last Edit: Jun 4, 2005, 12:38pm by cloudmonet » IP: Logged ————————————————
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:21:02 GMT -5
Carbon Blue Fox **** Posts: 682 « Reply #47 on Jun 5, 2005, 2:13am » um yeah, I know Kim's mouth looks that way a lot, but re-watch the scene. she isn't talking or frowning, and she blinks and her eyes get big. it's a suprised/jaw drop look. but it's off topic for this thread so on with the show... in what I think is one of the funniest lines of the series, if not the funniest, Kim asks Ron, "what did you do buy a ticket to every movie?" To which Ron replies, "No that would be stupid!" But of course we know from the looks on their faces that Kim sees right through that and Ron knows it too. the fact is they know each other better than that and Kim thinks Ron's attempts at getting a girl to notice him are pretty cute I guess you could say. [image missing] now let's compare two different scenes- "Mr. Smooth Makes his move" and "It could happen" Let's see what Ron looks like when he's around a girl he is interested in, Zita, compared to his "best friend" Kim, when thinking about dating: uh huh.. ok. ;D check out Kim, she's smiling, seems to be enjoying the "Mr. Smooth" treatment from Ron... at what point do her eyebrows change and we notice she starts to get annoyed? that's right, when Ron says "We're just Best Friends" she tilts her head forward and her mouth clearly changes from an upturned smile into a slight frown. [images missing] Is this the face of a girl who looks disgusted at the idea of the two of them dating? ps click the image for full size ———————————————— taechunsa Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 415 Location: Kansas « Reply #48 on Jun 5, 2005, 8:41am » I know what you mean. When I wasn't real busy this topic was really slow. Now that I barely have time to check the board people are posting like crazy. However, this is great. There are some very good points. Zede, it is great to have you on board. Your artistic insight will be most helpful since we are now getting into single screen cap inspection. One side note (question) regarding animation and direction of emotions. How much of it would have to be pretty well spelled out? I tend to think that a decent amount would have to be spelled out. I know that Rough Draft does a lot of animation for American shows, thus many of their artist probably have a better "feel" for these things then most Koreans, but I lived in Korea for a year and I can tell you that the display of emotions culturally inherent in the animators (assuming that they are Korean) is very different from Americans. Since we are going to analyze the screen caps and are making conjectures on how and who (which I think is fine) then we have to take into account the animator's cultural biasis when dealing with an individual animator having the reigns. One scene that becomes of extreme inportance in this light is the holding hands scene. There are two ways to look at this scene and both make it of importance. First, the animators were blatantly told to do it. This means that someone high up made a conscious decision to include this very unusual aspect into the scene. Second, there was no absolute input from high up and the individual animator had his own ideas of how to depict what he was roughly told to animate. With the second in mind this is still a major thing. In fact, the second makes it more of a hint then the first. In Korea it is very common to see two girls holding hands. It is also very common for two guys to physically be closer and more contact oriented then in America. I about came unglued the first time I was talking to a Korean male friend of mine and he put his hand on my leg. There was no double meaning to it. They are just more physical in contact intrasexually. However, physical contact between the sexes is a major thing. (This has been relaxing with the younger generations as American culture kills the Korean culture, but that is another issue.) Thus for a Korean animator to personally decide to have Kim and Ron holding hands in this one scene is very important. Either way, the holding hands scene is important. Now the lip gloss is a scene that I see more as Kim just being a girl. I am pretty sure that this was spelled out by the higher ups, but I don't think it was to show any romantic hint. Good job everyone. This thread is really taking off now. ———————————————— |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:22:52 GMT -5
Gottagrin Blue Fox **** Joined: Sept 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 847 « Reply #49 on Jun 5, 2005, 8:59am » I really think you guys have gone too far, yes K+R is pretty cool, I lilke it, but that's not everything about Kim Possible. "Sometimes a Naked Mole Rat is just a Naked Mole Rat", looking for 'hints' desperately is just a waste of your time.  « Last Edit: Jun 5, 2005, 9:00am by Gottagrin » ———————————————— Carbon Blue Fox **** Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 682 « Reply #50 on Jun 5, 2005, 9:15am » |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:24:01 GMT -5
Megz
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« Reply #51 on Jun 5, 2005, 10:21am »
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:25:11 GMT -5
Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,267 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #54 on Jun 5, 2005, 12:21pm » I love that there's so much detail in the show, and you can pick out all these little hints and subtlties and the continuing things like Ned's knoledge of robots (though anyone could sense something was up at BN). It just goes to show that the level of writing in this show surpasses most 'adult' shows on T.V. nowadays, and that everyone invovled has such tremendous passion for the show. Now is there any more to look at in this ep? ———————————————— cps111392 Guest « Reply #55 on Jun 5, 2005, 2:04pm » this is off topic but in bad boy when kim and ron are watching agony county ron said "that if charity and (forgot the guy’s name got together it would end the series.maybe the producers of kp were hinting about kim and ron getting together would end the series.i hope so much that i'm wrong  .any commonts .also in emotion sickness when ron asked kim if the crush was fake after kim said yes ron got a sad look on his face.then kim said ther's still fireworks ron got kind of happy. any commonts. ———————————————— Molon_UK Sidekick's Sidekick ***** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 5,267 Location: Nottingham England « Reply #56 on Jun 5, 2005, 2:42pm » As you brought it up, yes I noticed this too (in bothe eps) but that should be left for the season 3 discusssion. ———————————————— |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:26:17 GMT -5
taechunsa Blue Fox **** Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 415 Location: Kansas « Reply #57 on Jun 5, 2005, 2:55pm » Quote: I really think you guys have gone too far, yes K+R is pretty cool, I lilke it, but that's not everything about Kim Possible. "Sometimes a Naked Mole Rat is just a Naked Mole Rat", looking for 'hints' desperately is just a waste of your time. First, we never said that it was everything about Kim Possible. If it were it would not have been nearly as good of a show. CloudMonet covered this very well. Second, and no real offense, but who do you think you are to tell us what to do? No one is forcing you to read this thread or spend your time on it. If we choose to spend our time on it then it is becuase we enjoy it. Our discussing it is not harming you in any way. So I really wish that you would quit telling us to stop participating in the way that we wish. I do not see anyone being desperate about it. We are putting forth scenes in search of 'hints' that might have been purposely given by the creators. If you enjoy this and wish to participate we will welcome you. If you think it is a waste of time, don't come to this thread and quit wasting your time telling us to stop, becuase we won't stop just becuaese you think it is a waste of time. (I am sorry if I sound snippy, but I simply ignored it last time hoping that when we didn't quit you would politely take the hint. Now that you have not politely taken the hint I am being a bit more direct.) Quote: Now is there any more to look at in this ep? I do believe that it has been very completely picked apart. Are we ready for Two to Tutor, or does someone else have anything to contribute? « Last Edit: Jun 5, 2005, 3:02pm by taechunsa » ———————————————— |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:27:17 GMT -5
Two To TutorForlong Blue Fox **** Joined: Mar 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,225 Location: Kalamazoo « Reply #58 on Jun 5, 2005, 5:14pm » An interesting hint I found in Two to Tutor is that Kim wanted to get into photography. In All the News, Ron wanted to become a reporter. COINCIDENCE? Anyone got any screenshots of Kim seeing Ron cook for the first time? I think those might be consitered shippy. ———————————————— JuPMod Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 317 Location: New Jersey « Reply #59 on Jun 5, 2005, 7:10pm » "Two for Tutor". Least this is a S2 episode I have taped and remembered. Kim gets jealous I think in this episode just because Ron is a better cook than she is and happens to get the attention of the school because of it. Least Ron didn't complained when Kim gotten Wade to find some missions for them to do so she can get out of the class with Ron *teaching* her. This shows that Ron would go onto missions, eventhough it would take him away from his 'time to shine' moments in school. As for shippy K/R shots in this episode. The very end shot of Kim putting a hand on Ron's shoulder and they smile at each other. I know it may not be a shippy shot, but I particularly enjoyed that 'annoyed' look Kim gave Ron in her bedroom after Ron gave a good idea on how to find 'something really valuable and heavily guarded' by doing a websearch. After he said, "And I can cook too," she turned around, said "Hmph!" and gave Ron that annoyed look. I find it funny that KP is getting annoyed that Ron is getting one over her. ;D Overall, by episode's end, Kim finally accepted the fact that Ron is better than her in something. She finally took it in stride and admitted that Ron was a good tutor for her. It's good to watch an episode where Ron shines and Kim makes mistakes. Least it shows that Kim can't do *everything*.
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:51:21 GMT -5
Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) Page 5
campy
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« Reply #60 on Jun 5, 2005, 7:18pm »
Minor quibble: Kim can do anything, she's just maturing as a person and learning that she doesn't have to be better than everyone at everything.
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taechunsa
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« Reply #61 on Jun 5, 2005, 9:44pm »
Minor quibble (redux): Kim can't do everything. No one can and any character that could would be boring.
I like Two to Tutor but I really don't remember much in the way of any shippy 'hints' between Kim and Ron. However, this might simply be because the 'hints' between Shego and Junior were running so rampant.
I really didn't read much into the whole photography thing. Since it filled up so quick it must have been a pretty popular class.
I will just have to wait and see what the screen grabbers have to deliver and comment on those.
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:52:40 GMT -5
cloudmonet Blue Fox **** Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 711 Location: area 101, northern california « Reply #62 on Jun 5, 2005, 10:23pm » Two To TutorThis is a fun episode. So where are Kim and Ron this time, really? In production order, this one comes right after "Vir-tu-Ron," in which Ron was dating Zita Flores. Zita's gone. Poof! Vanished without a trace, and never mentioned again. I'll put off discussing what that might mean till we get to discussing "Vir-tu-Ron." There was a Zita, now there's no Zita. Ron shows no signs of recent heartbreak. Kim, on the other hand, is rather affectionate now, and continues to be affectionate through "Naked Genius" (discussed above), "Rufus in Show/Adventures in Rufus Sitting," "Motor Ed" (especially), and "Fearless Ferret." There is some seasonal reason to believe that this may not be the actual order these adventures happened in Kim's life, but it's at least not arbitrary. But the doubt as to the "real" sequence of events ("Rufus Sitting" would seem to require a summer vacation) limits my confidence about changes observed between episodes (in production order) after "Naked Genius." I do think that the double whammy of "The Ron Factor" and Zita changed Kim's attitude toward Ron from what it was in most of season one to what it becomes in season two: much more harmonious, they never work against each other again (without the radical mind-altering devices used in season 3), and they do lots of things together like a dating couple. In "Two to Tutor," we see parallels to "Bueno Nacho." Ron can cook, really well, and doesn't even seem to know this, or be especially interested in cooking, until presented with the opportunity. Kim, however, hates the very idea, and has slapstick comedy troubles with an electric eggbeater. Ron, who often is the overenthusiastic or prone-to-panic hysterical one, does have a zen-like side that occasionally appears, and there's a lot of zenlike Ron this time around. In parody of Jedi master Yoda teaching Luke how to levitate a spaceship, Ron says, "Let the beating of your heart and the beating of the blades blend together. You and the mixer become one. Now you try it and tell me how you feel." "I fe-e-el ri-i-idiculous!" "That, Kim, is why you fail." Eventually, Ron's cooking skills cause Mr Barkin to put him in charge, first of the cooking class, then the school cafeteria. "This is so wrong," Kim tells Wade, then goes to Europe with Ron (in his usual subordinate role) to solve robberies of grappling hooks, climbing ropes, parachutes, and le Goop hair grease. But at the climax of battle at the cookie bakery in Texas, Kim finds herself in a giant mixing vat filled with chocolate chip cookie dough, and Ron repeating his wisdom like a glowing Yoda ghost, which she uses to grab the blades, get pulled out of the dough, and spins off through the air to clobber Shego. In the end, she decides to stick with cooking class, crediting Ron's humorous wisdom for saving her life. She puts her hand on his shoulder, a gesture she'll make fairly often from now on. It'll be awhile before Ron returns it. He's verbal, she's tactile, expressing feelings.  She doesn't do anything like this, but it looks like she's about to pull him into a hug with her other hand and give him a major kiss. « Last Edit: Jun 5, 2005, 10:34pm by cloudmonet » IP: Logged ———————————————— |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:54:37 GMT -5
Zede05
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« Reply #63 on Jun 5, 2005, 11:04pm »
taechunsa, if the two characters are actually touching (holding hands), then it's probably planned from the top. Unless they do it differently for KP, animators only animate 1 character. So it's one artist doing Kim and one artist doing Ron. To have characters interacting physically requires the two animators to work together. So, I don't think they came up with that interaction on the fly.
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J
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« Reply #64 on Jun 5, 2005, 11:41pm »
Two To Tutor isn’t really a Kim and Ron episode. But rather, it’s a Shego and SSJ episode. It shows that SSJ does have potential to be lethal if he wanted to. It shows how much control SSS has over his son. And it shows that Shego is willing to get involved with someone who shares her evil tendencies.
Shippiness? Not much here. Kim and her arm at the end of the episode has already been covered. And Kim’s more sexually aggressive behavior from this point on has also been covered. There is this scene:
Mr. Barkin: Maybe a more confident student can tell you what you’re doing wrong. Stoppable!
Ron: (Rolls egg off shoulder) Be glad to, Mr. B!
Ron raises his eyebrows and smiles. He is full of confidence, and knows what he’s doing. Is he giving Kim a signal here? Yes, he is. He’s saying, “I can do something you’re having trouble with. But I’m willing to help you.” Ron is attracted to the damsel is distress. (We already covered this in Sink or Swim. This will be covered a lot more in The Fearless Ferret.) Since Kim cannot handle this, she runs away on a mission, taking Ron with her. I should note that Kim does not like any kind of negative criticism.
On a different note, Mr. Barkin throws the shovel much the same way Brock Sampson throws a knife on The Venture Brothers.
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:55:24 GMT -5
Back to Grudge Match Sydney Guest « Reply #65 on Jun 6, 2005, 12:50am » Hey guys, sorry its been a while. Wow do things move fast in here, heh. Thanks MolonUK, cloudmonet and J for all the responses to my earlier post, though I'm glad that some people thought a little more about the arm around the shoulder+ron's look thing like I did. All the analysis from Grudge Match was interesting too- I especially liked the two sides of Ron with Kim theory carbon presented. I think its clear that the "B" (awkweird) side is popping up a lot more in season 2 than 1. But anyways! Its so funny that this Zita character vanishes. Kind of in the same way that Mankey is virtually a non-element save in a few episodes. I mean- they were supposedly dating! In the lives of most high-schoolers, the significant other is, well...significant. And even if not in a "deep emotional connection" sort of way, certainly in a taking time sort of way- for instance, look at Bonnie and Brick, who were apparently onagain/ofgaffain, and yet she still dotes on by calling him to meet his glistening self after practice. (*yech* EVEN if he's voiced by Rider Strong. Seriously.) Sadly for a few lost souls I knew in high school, (and one I was related to) the boyfriend was the bane of the existence. But none of the people that Kim or Ron supposedly "date" ever got to the level of significance. Why? Well...because of THEM. I mean, think about it from an outside perspective. What guy or girl's going to seriously consider "going after" Kim or Ron without feeling intimidated by the behemoth of their friendship? I could see how someone dating either of them might somehow feel slighted by knowing that such a major part of that person was wrapped up in their best friend who happens to be a member of the opposite sex. You know you'll never be able to touch the Pre-K thing. All those subtle (and then not-so-subtle) "My Ron" signals Kim sends out. (So true, cloudmonet!) Maybe Zita just didn't want to deal with that. And of course the time commitment thing goes without saying...not that Kim would ever utter something vaguely as disgusting as Bonnie's glistening comment, but she doesn't really have the gobs of spare time to dote like that. When she's off saving the world (with Ron), she's spending time hanging out...with Ron. Remember when he's going through her caller ID in "Blush"? Might not have seemed that way to her at the time, but the percentage of space taken up in the ID log was about as much as Josh mattered all in all in Kim's life. And I would say the same for Zita- sure, Ron spends unforetold fortunes buying all those tickets, and I guess I can't say for sure considering I haven't seen Vir-tu-Ron, but when does she ever come up again? Heck, even the Tara "Sink or Swim" thing is brought up again in ES (again, yay details!). You'd think that Kim and Ron would wonder why their other relationships never crossed past anything more than crushes or sporadic dates. Or why the MHS student body started cheering at them when they arrived at prom hand in hand. HMM. Yeah, but sorry to get off topic there for a bit. I know its been discussed before and all, but I really think the nature of their fleeting "relationships" is important to thinking about Kim and Ron. Now I promise to move on. ———————————————— Two To Tutor, continuedSydney Guest \« Reply #66 on Jun 6, 2005, 1:22am » Alllrighty! Love the Ron zen moments in here. I think that the whole episode is a place for him to shine a little. And I agree with what J said about the little moment with Ron showing off- he's hamming it up a little, because he knows he's got it. Here's what you were talking about- [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/mreyebrows.jpg And then look at him here, too. He is so, completely, enjoying himself. [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/smooth.jpg And here's some other caps from quotes people were talking about- "And I can COOK, too." img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/icancooktoo.jpg(Kim's contemptful look following that comment) [image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/hahaha.jpg "Let the beating of your heart and the beating of the blades blend together. You and the mixer become one." (notice how scared Kim looks) img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/mixer2.jpg"Now you try it and tell me how you feel." (I love this shot) img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/expression.jpg"I fe-e-el ri-i-idiculous!" "That, Kim, is why you fail." img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/whyyoufail.jpgimg.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/whyyoufail2.jpgHope those help in ironing things out or anything. Um, and just for fun...watch Ron boogie! Man I wish I had a gif of these. img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/e255b2f5.jpgimg.photobucket.com/albums/v605/poprocks/dance2.jpg————————————————
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:56:09 GMT -5
Nightspade
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« Reply #67 on Jun 6, 2005, 1:25am »
This thread, and others like it, are just further proof that they are meant to be together.
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taechunsa
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« Reply #68 on Jun 6, 2005, 8:54am »
Man, great points everyone.
I really wish that I had the time to actually sit down and watch each ep like I did at the beginning.
Zede, thank you very much for the insight into the animation cycle.
CloudMonet, excellent points as usual.
J, I like the perspective of Ron being confident that you gave. As for Kim, well, to me Kim is not good at handling being second best to anyone, especially Ron, it is her "fatal flaw".
Sydney, you make some very valid arguments for Zita's disappearance. Of course since it was decided in another thread that Ron and Mr. Possible actually conspire to shoot all of Kim's boyfriends into a blackhole (given how they all seem to just disappear), maybe there is a blackhole filling with girls that Kim doesn't like around Ron. Better watch your back Yori.
;D
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JuPMod
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« Reply #69 on Jun 6, 2005, 12:06pm »
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 15:57:42 GMT -5
Sydney Guest « Reply #72 on Jun 7, 2005, 2:01am »  Poor Yori!! Although, to her credit, I think she'd put up quite a fight before allowing herself to be blackhole-ified. (I like Yori. ^_^) Stoppable fanciers beware, heh. No problem! I took a them a while ago so that I could at some point (hopefully) make a ton of livejournal icons from them. (So far there are two. Oh well.) And then, as I was reading the thread, I just sort of realized "hey! I've got caps for all these quotes! score!" *scurries over to photobucket* But yeah, she really does. As Ron would say, she's quite tweakable- I think its just part of her personality. Her entire life, its been hammered into her, time after time, that anything is possible for a Possible. Thus, her life motto becomes, "I can do anything!". And as campy said, I think one of the important things that happens over the course of the series is that she slowly starts to realize that being able to do anything doesn't necessarily mean doing those things the best, or even well at all. She realizes Bonnie could really give her a run for her money for her slot as cheer captain, and that Ron can cook well and bond fearlessly with large insects. But she still tends to get pissed when she sees it happening, because that drive to succeed and the confidence that she WILL is etched so deeply into her psyche. Because she is Kim Possible. And on the other side, its doubtful that she'd be able to put herself in such danger if she didn't believe that she would succeed, every single time. Which is why "I got nothing" is such a defining line in StD. And probably a sign that from then on, she might just be a little less tweakable. Hopefully. For the sake of those with the mistfortune of existing within shooting range of those looks of hers. Exactly. Heh, and even sometimes that seems to annoy her. (Take over the world. STEAL CHRISTMAS!) She's definitely a bit one-sided in her spin on things, sometimes. Can't wait to hear what you've got on Ron Factor. And as for your comment about why Ron and Kim really couldn't date other people, thank you. Sometimes things come out making more sense than I think they do originally, heh. I just saw it as a "When Harry Met Sally" sort of thing- two people who care so deeply about their friendship that they don't realize, or want to even consider (because of the importance of that connection) that there might be something more. ———————————————— Gottagrin Blue Fox **** Joined: Sept 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 847 « Reply #73 on Jun 7, 2005, 11:06am » Oops....I can't help but wondered which part of my comment made you believe it was a total offence? Really, I can't see it, though, I must appologize to everyone who considered (or perhaps misinterpreted) my line as an attempt to bash other's creative ideas. Yes the tension of daily life got my nerves recently(eg. Solving tricky physics:)), but you should know sometimes people don't mean by what they said, at least, in this case. It's just...well I think you guys should be more active with other topics. If you come to this board frequently enough you should have known, I am not particularly a serious guy with his attitude, especialy when relationship issues involved. I have balanced myself from the day shipment started, I've been trying so hard to avoid taking side from inbetween shipper and anti-shipper group(my words to Jabby can really confuse you). And mind you, the motive everytime I 'brought it up' was also random. Plus, English is not my native language, and It'd be possible that I havn't made myself very clear with it. Enough explanation. Anyway, I am not going to anger Mr. SitDown, forgive me please. ———————————————— [end of page 5] |
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Post by cloudmonet on Mar 25, 2006 16:16:40 GMT -5
Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) Page 6
Two To Tutor, cont.
Cached by Google Aug 17, 2005 01:36:23 GMT.
[I'm skipping a bit of off-topic chat]
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GnuHopper
Guest
« Reply #78 on Jun 7, 2005, 9:15pm »
Before we move on from "Two to Tutor" i just wanted to note that this episode touches on one of the running themes of Ron's character, what I once heard described as "Ron's ambivalence about assuming a traditional masculine role". Time and again during the series we see Ron embracing activities we would normally see as "feminine": dressing as a ballerina on his first Halloween, joining the cheer squad (as mascot) when pressed to join some extra-curricular activity, receiving a "Granny Crocker oven" when eight leading to a love of cooking, and later becoming a Pixie Scout. Considering all this, coupled with Ron's usual subordinate role to Kim, could account for at least part of Kim's reluctance to pursue a more romantic relationship with Ron through most of the series -- she has to martue a bit to see that Ron's traditionally unmasculine interests do not make him unmanly. If fact, I'd argue that Ron's ability to embrace these activities without prejudice is a sign of maturity and a more enlightened mindset. Ron doesn't usually judge on gender stereotypes...after all, how could he not be a believer in female empowerment after growing up alongside Kim Possible?
GH
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cloudmonet
Blue Fox
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Joined: May 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 746
Location: area 101, northern california
« Reply #79 on Jun 8, 2005, 12:31am »
Fascinating observation, GnuHopper.
But I think I disagree. Hmmm... Kim does a fair amount of both masculine and feminine stuff. She kung-fu fights ruffians and wears pink-heart shirts and nail polish. She's not your typical macho girl, if there is such a thing.
Similarly, Ron likes being both a warrior hero and a world-class chef, also stereotypes of both genders.
Does Kim think Ron is unmasculine? I don't think so. Let's look back at "Ron the Man." Okay, so Ron scored low on the macho quiz in that Henchco lobby magazine. This bothered him, but Kim was annoyed that he even cared about this stuff, and even more annoyed by his instant muscles and macho attitude. The guy Kim's seen crushing on most often, Josh Mankey, is hardly Mr. Macho Man. He's the school artist.
Okay, she repeatedly says, "Ron's not a guy, he's Ron," but I think she just means Ron's not boyfriend material, not that he's insufficiently masculine. She does complain that Ron's "filled with childlike wonder a little too much," and says that "the person you go with makes a statement." What she seems to want is for Ron to pick up on her signals and respond in some appropriate manner. What Ron wants more than anything is her affection and appreciation. Once they get past Kim's suitability tests and Ron's fear of rejection, they melt into each other's arms in a big way quite naturally.
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), oh well.
it needs some carbon-shine though..... ;D
.any commonts .also in emotion sickness when ron asked kim if the crush was fake after kim said yes ron got a sad look on his face.then kim said ther's still fireworks ron got kind of happy. any commonts.
Poor Yori!! Although, to her credit, I think she'd put up quite a fight before allowing herself to be blackhole-ified. (I like Yori. ^_^) Stoppable fanciers beware, heh.