On the importance of Canon

[mikei]

Not here... But you were posting about how you burned me.... That in itself desired a rebutle from me. Then you delete taht post... Now your trying to make me look like a fool, It's not going to work...

And it just proves my point even more... Saying you want people to read your posts over there. I invite them to see what you wrote.

[mikei]

I don't care if I get banned. I don't care if you twist your own words...

Good luck SNS... Your gonna need it.

[mike]

mikei said:

SNS wrote:
I can still post a the other forum. I proved what a bunch of close minded
f-u-c-k-s you, ran, and mike are. Descriminating against my views. You guys are a
boo-yahing riot.

Hold the phone, right here, right now. Is that mike me or what , because if that's me your telling wrong things about people here.

[dracko19]

"WOAH WOAH WOAH...TIME OUT!!!" - Syndrome from The Incredibles

Okay kids...when we stop playing nice, Uncle Dracko has to step in. Mikei (whom is also known as Mike Industries at FF.net and GJA) and our own SlickNickShady have decided to bring some trash from another forum onto ours. We don't allow this. This thread has run its course and is now completely off topic. Therefore, it is being locked. I will be dealing with the offenders shortly.

UPDATE
OKay, looks like I have that situation under control now. This thread is probably the most active thread in the fanfic area of our forum in months, so if you'd like to post here and STAY ON TOPIC, I will allow you to. This thead is being closely watched.

Thank you for your patience.

[Luke Danger]

dracko19 said:

"WOAH WOAH WOAH...TIME OUT!!!" - Syndrome from The Incredibles

Okay kids...when we stop playing nice, Uncle Dracko has to step in. Mikei (whom is also known as Mike Industries at FF.net and GJA) and our own SlickNickShady have decided to bring some trash from another forum onto ours. We don't allow this. This thread has run its course and is now completely off topic. Therefore, it is being locked. I will be dealing with the offenders shortly.

UPDATE
OKay, looks like I have that situation under control now. This thread is probably the most active thread in the fanfic area of our forum in months, so if you'd like to post here and STAY ON TOPIC, I will allow you to. This thead is being closely watched.

Thank you for your patience.

*walks in* WHOA! what'd I miss?!

Ya know, I really think we need to look over.

Ok, the 'K/R Mytyr', er, Slicknickshady, you'll actually do the EXACT OPOSATE of it, you'll make the ship look bad, also, you'll annoy the other K/R shippers (in a similar manner to clayton has done to the KiGo shippers, (Thanks beeftony to telling me about this, that PM definitly might stop a nuke from blowing)), and will achive the exact opisate of your goal.

Mikei, your new here, and, unless you can supply the exact quote, you really can't prove he said it, it easily could of been made up. Sorry, but, it really isn't hard evidence yet.

To the BOTH OF YOU, please! STOP! If you want to argue to your hearts delight, please, take it to the PM's, and agree that you won't get eachother banned unless it is appropreate (mods dicision here), so you should make sure at least one mod is in on the chat via using the multiple PM ability, this allows it to still be examined, but also to be kept away from those who will get angered by your fights. Preferibly, I'd enjoy it if you guys stopped COMPLEATLY!

Now, let's get back onto the importance of cannon shall we?

Allright, now, I got a bit more to say about canon, first of all, people say that things such as KiGo or DraKim or Rongo should be banned from FF.net and RS.net or feel the need to send harsh things using the canon arguement. THAT ARGUEMENT HAS IT'S TIME AND PLACE, now, fanfictions ARE allowed to go against Cannon, so untill I see a rule that EXPLICITLY STATES 'Non-cannon ships and fanfictions are unallowed' (to clarify, a 'non-cannon' fanfic would mess the plotlines of offical KP cannon, like Shadow15's Neccesary Evil: The Middleton cell, which takes place shortly after STG and kills Kim and Ron off before the story is even introduced as a example. ALL FIC WRITERS ARE ALLOWED TO DO SO, THEY HAVE THE 'FREEDOM OF SPEACH' AND SUCH, THIS MEANS WE CAN'T waste our breath arguing, you wish to know the reason the KiGo thread is in the villians section? This was actually a KIGO move (or at least I think it was,) to keep the peace. A Honorible dicision by the person whom started it.

Canon has its course, and non-cannon has it's own course. Now, me, for example, I'm expanding on cannon, while Shallow15 on the other hand, is trying out 'what-if's' or, non cannon, as exploring 'what if this happened' or 'what if Kim and Ron failed here', or even just to express HOW we wanted the series to go!

So bottom line, if you hate non-cannon, JUST AVOID IT IF YOU CAN! If you hate cannon, AVOID IT IF POSSIBLE!

In conclusion, we seriously need to come up with a GENERAL CENSUS, as in one that MOST will follow (does NOT force all to do so, just pointing out), so we can figure out how to work this without clashes.

[Slyrr]

People say the same stuff about rated-R movies - 'Hey, if ya don't like it, just don't look! No one's forcin' ya!' But would they say the same thing about a display of the 10 commandments....?

Having already spoken on the subject, I can only re-iterate. I'm a writer who sticks as close to canon as he can, and I don't write any events in my stories that would 'affect' the animated series. My stories can be factored in and out of established series events with ease. It takes more effort (in some ways) to do it that way, but I think it's worth it. I like canon - it am good.

Anyone remember "Tremors"?

"Hey, what is that?"
"It's cannon fuse."
"What do you have that stuff for?"
"For my cannon."

[cpneb]

slyrr said:

People say the same stuff about rated-R movies - 'Hey, if ya don't like it, just don't look! No one's forcin' ya!' But would they say the same thing about a display of the 10 commandments....?

Having already spoken on the subject, I can only re-iterate. I'm a writer who sticks as close to canon as he can, and I don't write any events in my stories that would 'affect' the animated series. My stories can be factored in and out of established series events with ease. It takes more effort (in some ways) to do it that way, but I think it's worth it. I like canon - it am good.

Anyone remember "Tremors"?

"Hey, what is that?"
"It's cannon fuse."
"What do you have that stuff for?"
"For my cannon."

Slyrr, you're on a roll...is it a parker house (rim shot here!) I do heartily recommend Slyrr's stories. The illustrated versions are excellent, almost as good as his writing (and I have a major crush on Rhonda F, just don't tell Grimm, Slyrr!)

Regarding canon: In my JadeKimVerse, canon is fairly consistent except for specific KP characters: Wade, Jocelyn, and Bonnie. I've taken Justine and expanded her role more than a bit, giving the reasons that she was so mad at Kim in 'Partners.' I expanded on canon when I asked the two questions: Why won't Wade leave his room, and what happened to Slim's wife? the 545-word plot bunny has grown to 1/2 mil words with another 1.0 mil remaining (at a minimum) as I move into Kim/Ron's family (after marriage), the families of the characters, and the actions of many.

Define, Hell blew when I asked 'What would have happened if Dr. D went off the deep end and went quietly insane after the Crooked D? Disney would never do this: people can't die, but the real world happens to the characters.

I wrote one KiGo just to see if I could and to gauge the responses.

Canon is, obviously, more important to some writers than others, but no writer sins if they do not stay with canon: Canon would require no original thought and the regurgitation of the scripts, in my opinion. Since that would be the opposite of fanfiction, the logic escapes me.

I would expect lively conversations on canon on shows such as West Wing, where real people play the roles. I don't see this level of contention over there, so I'm confused. I'll stay that way and continue to turn out Jade and DH and other works as I move forward. I hope that people read and review: that's all I can do.

[MrDrP]

Holy naco!

Can somebody tell me how a show that centers around friendship and going the extra mile for those one cares about can spawn such vitriol? If Kim and Ron were real people does anyone think they'd want to associated with this invective? I think not. To be quite honest, it's embarrassing and inappropriate.

Now, to the point of the thread: canon is what was aired on TV, i.e., the 87 broadcast episodes. That's it. Period. No less an authority than Bob Schooley has said as much. While I believe special consideration should be given to what Mark, Bob, and Steve have said about post-series life for Kim, Ron, and the gang, those comments are not canon, they're apocrypha. As for fanfiction and fanart, those have zero canonical standing, no matter how popular a work is among the fandom.

Some of us attach more importance to canon than others. When writing my stories, I seek to extrapolate from canon rather than contradict it. Thus, Kim and Ron are a couple, people don't use guns, and people aren't having sex like jackrabbits in heat. I try to keep everyone in character, even when writing an AU or crossover. Indeed, one of the highest compliments I can receive is that everyone is in character.

I wish everyone appreciated K/R the way I do. They don't. That's a fact of life. And it's a fact of life that someone who doesn't ship what I ship isn't a bad person. I've had disagreements, some sharp, with Kigo fans. But I've also had some wonderful exchanges with Kigo fans, too. We may not enjoy the same stories, but we enjoy the same TV show -- and often other things, too. In the spirit of "Graduation," where heroes and villains got along, let's try to do the same.

[dracko19]

You know....

I can't understand why people get upset about reading a story that goes in a direction they wouldn't take. I mean, you can stop reading at any time and find an author that you enjoy. If I was reading a Harry Potter story and I see something very sick, I would just stop reading and discard it and move on to a different author. I'd make a mental note that I should avoid previous author and then move on. No big!

Attacking an author due to his interpetation of the characters or the story in general is like attacking Dr. Dre because you don't like Rap. I mean, switch the radio channel then. Don't send him hate mail. Just listen to what you love. Read what you love. Dont hate. APPRECIATE!

Anyway....canon sets the background. What you do next is up to you. Its like getting to write the 88th episode or the 3rd movie of KP. Take it in whatever direction you want. Express yourself! Who cares if anyone likes it. AS LONG AS YOU LIKE IT, THAT'S ALL THAT SHOULD MATTER.

If you're the type that needs that positive reinforcement about how good your stories are, then feel free to engage your critics and fans. However, I agree that you should write a story FOR YOU first and fans second. If its good, fans will read it and like it.

[Mickey]

Oh, Dracko. You and your silly use of logic.

[Ran Hakubi]

*cracks his knuckles and goes to work*

Hi, I'm Ran Hakubi. You might know me from such fanfics as "The Jellyfish Insident" or "Possible Guy." I'm also a mod over at the Poll Vault.

Over at the Poll Vault, we pride ourselves on taking care of our members and make sure that each and every one of them have a safe place to post their opinion, regardless of what it may be.

Sometimes we have to "take out the trash" as it were, but this is an unfortunate happenstance that all forum mods have to deal with.

Now, as for the subject at hand, the importance of canon is for, how shall I state this, THE SHOW! For fanfics, the canon is mearly a suggestion and a guidelines for how to work with your fics.

Is KiGo canon? Not on your life. Is it canon for some of the fine authors over at ff.net? You betcha!

Now, before anyone gets all huffy with me, I would like to state first and formost that we consider a fic to be part of the Kim Possible fanfics if it involves the characters. We also wish that the characters act like they do in the show, but we do not mind a little tweaking now and then. If you have to make KP a lesbian or bisexual so that she can have a relationship with Shego, we don't mind.

I'm sure I don't speak for the entire KP fanfic community, but I do like to feel like I speak for SOME of the writers out there.

[Slyrr]

Incidentally cpneb - welcome to the ronstoppable.net forums!
And people - don't let the 'pink sloth' moniker fool you - this guy has been writing at fanfiction.net for ages, and has some of the best AU (alternate universe) stories posted. He even won a golden Rufus in the 2nd annual fannies award ceremony - if you get the chance, check out his stuff. It's well worth the look-see....

Slyrr

[Commander Argus]

If more people did the way I do, this would be a much quieter place. Slick, pay attention:

When I stumble accidentally onto Kigo or some other ship that is not my cup of tea, I say "Uh, okay" then walk away. No flames, not nasty PMs and aside from an occasional mild complaint (because I actually do NOT like Kigo) I stay quiet about it. No harm, no foul.

I think a good way to describe what folks are asking about here is "Canon-style" I'm currently writing an AU universe where certain events unfolded differently, but I'm still writing as if it's the same Kim and Ron. Is it canon? No. It's drifting further and further from the original story (it starts at the end of Emotion Sickness and diverges from there)

[~K♥R~]

cmdrargus said:

If more people did the way I do, this would be a much quieter place. Slick, pay attention:

When I stumble accidentally onto Kigo or some other ship that is not my cup of tea, I say "Uh, okay" then walk away. No flames, not nasty PMs and aside from an occasional mild complaint (because I actually do NOT like Kigo) I stay quiet about it. No harm, no foul.

I think a good way to describe what folks are asking about here is "Canon-style" I'm currently writing an AU universe where certain events unfolded differently, but I'm still writing as if it's the same Kim and Ron. Is it canon? No. It's drifting further and further from the original story (it starts at the end of Emotion Sickness and diverges from there)

Is that your "There's Still Fireworks"? If so, yeah. It's pretty awesome indeed.

My thoughts on canon are this. Whenever I see a "Kigo" or Ron/Bonnie.. whatever the case may be, I don't really say.. "Ew, evil. Stupid, retarded, raaawr".. I just look past it and move on to something else. I'll read a story of another ship every now and again, because it's fun to think about. Most of the time though, I'd rather stick to the Kim/Ron. Now as far as strictly basing it off the anime, I don't really think you have to. Stories like what Commander Argus is doing, or how someone else may have "So the Drama" end differently doesn't really mean it's wrong, just means it's not actually "canon." :/ I hate seeing people argue it so adamantly. I wouldn't mind seeing a story for after "Graduation" personally.

[mike]

cmdrargus said:

If more people did the way I do, this would be a much quieter place. Slick, pay attention:

When I stumble accidentally onto Kigo or some other ship that is not my cup of tea, I say "Uh, okay" then walk away. No flames, not nasty PMs and aside from an occasional mild complaint (because I actually do NOT like Kigo) I stay quiet about it. No harm, no foul.

The same is true for me ;D

and about the recent flame wars... K/R is indeed canon, however it doesn't mean that you should like canon.... because if that is so there won't be fiction...

[cpneb]

slyrr said:

Incidentally cpneb - welcome to the ronstoppable.net forums!
And people - don't let the 'pink sloth' moniker fool you - this guy has been writing at fanfiction.net for ages, and has some of the best AU (alternate universe) stories posted. He even won a golden Rufus in the 2nd annual fannies award ceremony - if you get the chance, check out his stuff. It's well worth the look-see....

Slyrr

Thanks, Slyrr, for the welcome and the plug of my work: I've been in stealth mode over here for a bit, but have decided to become a bit more active. Team Probable is still the best thing I've seen in this arena of 'evil Kim,' and Rhonda and Jade are most definitely the cutest villains out there, in here.

Regarding canon:
There are many interpretations of canon: it depends on the writer. Those definitions range from the strict to loose interpretations, and all are valid in the mind of the writer. Readers may or may not agree with the writer's interpretation as is their choice. The very advantage of the Internet environment which we all enjoy is also its curse: instant access to the writer to share your opinions of his/her work. We all need to become more cognizant of our words, for Dr. D. was correct: word hurt.

My table at the Fannies will most definitely be the most eclectic: K/R, KiGo. RuGo, Jade writers, male and female, ages 11 to 53, a rocket scientist and sixth grader, under 5000 words and over 1/2 million. In the true, Texas tradition, Y'all are welcome to stop by, and say hi: we'd love to meet you.

[dracko19]

I've noticed a few posts recently that seem to imply that some have different definitions for the word "canon". It would be most helpful if we all agreed on the definition before continuing to discuss it.

There have been various posts about this, but I think the overall consensus is this: Canon means what we have actually SEEN and HEARD on the show. Anything outside of it (regardless of source...even from VIP chat speculation into the future) is NOT canon. Try to keep that in mind for this discussion.

[yvj]

dracko19 said:

I've noticed a few posts recently that seem to imply that some have different definitions for the word "canon". It would be most helpful if we all agreed on the definition before continuing to discuss it.

There have been various posts about this, but I think the overall consensus is this: Canon means what we have actually SEEN and HEARD on the show. Anything outside of it (regardless of source...even from VIP chat speculation into the future) is NOT canon. Try to keep that in mind for this discussion.

This is what you said on 9/9/07

A couple things....

I think some of you need to do a little research on what "canon" means. I think some of you have twisted the definition to your desires. Its almost gotten to the point where you think a drink made up of oranges is called lemonade.

Canon essentially boils down to the source. If the source is from the ORIGINAL ARTISTS/CREATORS than it is considered Canon. If it is from an ALTERNATE SOURCE (fanfic, etc.) then it is NOT canon. You don't necessarily need to see something with your own eyes for it to be Canon. However, the source needs to be the ORIGINAL ARTISTS/CREATORS.

I wonder if stuff like J. R. R. Tolkien's letters in relation to Middle-earth; or the stuff J. K. Rowling (Harry Potter) says in her interviews or her on the web "chats" get this much contention.

But the bottom line is people will do what pleases them. If someone wants to see Rufus change into a human and get it on with Ron (real story) that's what they will write about.

Is that going to change canon? No...... so why make a fuss about it?

[JuPMod]

dracko19 said:

There have been various posts about this, but I think the overall consensus is this: Canon means what we have actually SEEN and HEARD on the show. Anything outside of it (regardless of source...even from VIP chat speculation into the future) is NOT canon. Try to keep that in mind for this discussion.

I like to say we're lucky we just have only one sourse for canon to make it easier for all of us. KP is not like Trek, which have so many diferent sources that it's crazy to determine what's canon or not in that fandom.

[mike]

*sighs* the fandom indeed continues with or without a new season... Fan-fic relating to canon, the next best thing....

/* FFF all the way */