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Post by yes4possible on May 27, 2007 23:47:12 GMT -5
There are Bonnie fan threads, and Bonnie hater threads. I consider myself netural, here is my thoughts on the Kim and Bonnie rivlarory. Points I brought up before, but thought is deserved its own topic.
Here are my thoughts, and want to hear your thoughts.
1) Bonnie is a worthy adversary. Rarely in any competition they have, is Kim head and soulders better than Bonnie. She hangs in there with Kim, I give her credit.
2) Bonnie would never cheat. When Kim and Bonnie are competing, I don't think Bonnie would ever lock Kim in a closet or make sure she is detained, so she doesn't show up. Nor would she sabotage Kim and cheat to win. Because to Bonnie that is admitted Kim is better than her, and she can't beat Kim without cheating or if Kim wasn't in the competition.
3) I have to admit it, Bonnie has come up with some clever insults towards Kim. This points back to my first thought, about Bonnie being a worthy adversary. But she is smart, just like Kim.
I loved the part in Bonding when she ran down how Domentor's way of doing things, is not the best way. That is so true, I scratch my head at villains and their villain code sometimes. When Bonnie said "Well it is stupid", it felt like I was talking. My sentements exactly Bonnie.
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Post by Rognik on May 28, 2007 0:00:29 GMT -5
I have to agree. Bonnie and Kim are like two wolves, fighting for the alpha spot. It just so happens that Kim usually winds up on top. Bonnie also knows where to win her victories, like when she shows up with her car, or has a giant truckload of chocolate bars drive off. If she's going to win, it's going to be a fair victory, and one that's worth bragging about. I guess it's sort of like the theories discussed about the villains: it's not enough to just kill Kim, she has to be throughly crushed.
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Post by yes4possible on May 28, 2007 0:09:55 GMT -5
It is sort of like Kim's rivalory with Shego, and what we all love about Kim and Shego's fights. They are on equal footing, Kim is not head and soulders better. What fun is it, if Kim wins easily.
Bonnie has won a few times, Number One and Car Trouble for example. Though Car Trobule there wasn't a clear competition, I don't think Bonnie really cares that she was a better driver, but it proves a point that she has something that she is better at than Kim. And at times, Kim doesn't always get the better of Bonnie.
I expect Kim to get the better of Bonnie most of the time, but if Kim won all the time, it would eventully get old and predictable.
Though Bonnie is not above doing some dirty tricks such as playing a video of Kim in a school play in grade school in Hidden Talent or as you said show a giant truck load of chocolete in Number One. And it is just to play with Kim's mind, make her mad and maybe she makes a mistake, which is gamesmenship. As long as it not against the rules, Bonnie will do some mind games tricks.
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Post by Whisper from the Shadows on May 28, 2007 9:04:16 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Okay, I'm going to go psychologist here, so ignore this post if you think I read too much into cartoon personalities.
Bonnie has been brought up in an environment where she feels she has to be number one. Her sisters are constantly reminding her how they got the brains/looks and she got everything else. To compensate for the lack of credit she gets at home, she feel compelled to prove them wrong by being number one at everything she does. In her mind, being number one would get them to leave her alone (or in her deepest subconscious fantasies, praise her good work), and it might even make her feel better than them. It took the two of them working together to be at the top of everything, so if she can do the same things both of them working together did, that must mean she is "better". I put better in quotes for a reason, another part of her misguided attempts to be number one stem from the idea that the things you accomplish mean more than the other stuff in life (relationships, friendships, family, etc...), she has yet to see (or at least admit) that her drive is all for naught (which when she does come to that conclusion, she's going to have a period of depression; don't worry, she's strong enough to pull herself out of it IMO).
Now, let's put someone with this amount of drive to be "the best" in a situation where there is someone better than her... and they don't try half as hard. Speaking from experience, there was a girl I went to High School with that was always the top of her class (there were two Grade Schools that combined into one HS), and I was always at the top of mine; I didn't care/try to get good grades, I just did. She, on the other hand, worked her figurative gonads off keeping her grades up... she hated me for it. It wasn't until our senior year at a party (alcohol probably helped this sitch) that we sat down and talked about our "rivalry", she explained how she was just pissed that I could do just as good as her with half the effort; her exact words were something like this, "You get everything handed to you on a f***ing platter, you don't even have to try to get what I want." (at which point we cleared everything up, but that's another story).
Trying to be at the top, working until she wants to drop and then pushing herself even farther is draining. Then to see her efforts come in second best, to someone who doesn't even seem to try is enough to drive her to a near hatred. KP's favorite response to compliments is probably one of the worst thing for Bonnie to hear, "No big" implies that Kim doesn't think much of what she just did (even if what she just did was spectacular by most people's standards) and that same 'no big' thing was something that just knocked the stuffing out of Bonnie's best.
Am I saying Kim is better than Bonnie? No, in fact I'd have to say that I have more respect for Bonnie's drive than Kim's. Bonnie knows what she has to do to get what she wants, and she does it; Kim on the other hand sees what she wants, and goes for it at a whim because of her natural talents.
As for yes4possible's points:
1) Yes, Bonnie is a worthy adversary, because she makes herself into one.
2) You're right, to cheat would cheapen the victory. The old saying goes, "You can't be number one without beating the champ."
3) see #1
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Post by yes4possible on May 28, 2007 11:27:04 GMT -5
I hope at the end when they graduate, they could admit to the other that they were a good opponent, and maybe even say they don't hate each other. Once it ends, no reason not to be civil.
Maybe 10 or 20 years from now, Bonnie look back at this, and apprecate her rivalory with Kim more and maybe think that maybe Kim made her a better person because she fourced her to be on top game. She could think back to "that Kim Possible, she drove me to another level at everything, looking back I wished I thank her."
Maybe even Kim might feel the same to a lesser exdent, because she has a whole other life in saving the world from villains. she has Shego that also has the same effect, Bonnie only has Kim.
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Post by nabusan on May 28, 2007 11:30:33 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension.
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Post by yes4possible on May 28, 2007 12:02:08 GMT -5
Disclaimer: Okay, I'm going to go psychologist here, so ignore this post if you think I read too much into cartoon personalities. Bonnie has been brought up in an environment where she feels she has to be number one. Her sisters are constantly reminding her how they got the brains/looks and she got everything else. To compensate for the lack of credit she gets at home, she feel compelled to prove them wrong by being number one at everything she does. In her mind, being number one would get them to leave her alone (or in her deepest subconscious fantasies, praise her good work), and it might even make her feel better than them. It took the two of them working together to be at the top of everything, so if she can do the same things both of them working together did, that must mean she is "better". I put better in quotes for a reason, another part of her misguided attempts to be number one stem from the idea that the things you accomplish mean more than the other stuff in life (relationships, friendships, family, etc...), she has yet to see (or at least admit) that her drive is all for naught (which when she does come to that conclusion, she's going to have a period of depression; don't worry, she's strong enough to pull herself out of it IMO). Now, let's put someone with this amount of drive to be "the best" in a situation where there is someone better than her... and they don't try half as hard. Speaking from experience, there was a girl I went to High School with that was always the top of her class (there were two Grade Schools that combined into one HS), and I was always at the top of mine; I didn't care/try to get good grades, I just did. She, on the other hand, worked her figurative gonads off keeping her grades up... she hated me for it. It wasn't until our senior year at a party (alcohol probably helped this sitch) that we sat down and talked about our "rivalry", she explained how she was just -ed that I could do just as good as her with half the effort; her exact words were something like this, "You get everything handed to you on a f***ing platter, you don't even have to try to get what I want." (at which point we cleared everything up, but that's another story). Trying to be at the top, working until she wants to drop and then pushing herself even farther is draining. Then to see her efforts come in second best, to someone who doesn't even seem to try is enough to drive her to a near hatred. KP's favorite response to compliments is probably one of the worst thing for Bonnie to hear, "No big" implies that Kim doesn't think much of what she just did (even if what she just did was spectacular by most people's standards) and that same 'no big' thing was something that just knocked the stuffing out of Bonnie's best. You know the scarry thing is, that also describes another character I know from another show, Princess Azula of Avatar: The Last Airbender. She is exactly the same way, she is driven to be number one and perfect. And it comes from family, for Bonnie it was her sisters, for Azula it was her father. I guess Azula is an example of if you take Bonnie's desire to be the best, and Shego's love of evil, and that is close to what you get. I guess many people have the same problem and pressures to be the best, I guess different people approach them in different ways. Bonnie could have gone the same path, but at some point she took a right turn, and didn't let that make her into a horrible evil person, just a competitor who sometimes can mean and rude to her opponent.
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Post by Rognik on May 28, 2007 13:50:05 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Thank you, Dr. Freud.
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Post by Whisper from the Shadows on May 28, 2007 21:38:57 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Well, we all know she wants Ron, so maybe it's even more competition between the two. *ducks as anti-Ron/Bon people throw things*
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Post by trombe on May 28, 2007 22:12:32 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Well, we all know she wants Ron, so maybe it's even more competition between the two. *ducks as anti-Ron/Bon people throw things* Quick! power the Ron/Bon love shields!
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Post by yes4possible on May 29, 2007 15:28:58 GMT -5
I think the direction this rival could head and conclue, is Kim and Bonnie act more civil towards each other, and be less nasty about their rivalory. They would probably never be best of friends, but not so bitter enemies as they have been.
Like the relationship between Jake Long and Fred Nerk, on KP's sister show American Dragon: Jake Long. In Dragon Summit they were bitter rivals, but after they had an encounter with the Dark Dragon, in which one saved the other's life, there was mutual respect. At the end of the episode you could tell the rivalory was still there, but it was more friendly rivalory.
But you never know, for those that are old enough to remember a show called Gummi Bears, there was a rivalory between two princesses, and they later become good friends.
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Post by ninjanaco on May 30, 2007 9:18:20 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Not everyone roots for the home team, nab. Actually, one of the most important insights into Bonnie's way of thinking is in So the Drama when she remarks to Kim, "Like it's all about you." Kim, of course, is angry because said Rockwaller just made the entire squad collapse its pyramid just so she could talk to Brick. Bonnie, however, does not see this. What she sees is Kim being mad because she put Brick's call above Kim's cheer routine. Why? Because, perhaps in part due to being raised with two older, malicious sisters, she's convinced that everyone is, in fact, self-centered and selfish like her. She has what might be called a postmodern sensibility, in the fact that she sees all actions, no matter how altruistic (like Kim's concern for her fellow cheerleaders, her "save the world" actions and what not) as "really" about getting more power, attention, guys etc. to yourself, even when it's not. So, well, that's why I think Bonnie hates Kim so much. She thinks she should have "the spotlight" in her class, after so many years of harassment by her sisters, but, in her mind, Kim decided to show her up. Just my 2 cents for now.
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Post by nabusan on May 30, 2007 9:27:54 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Not everyone roots for the home team, nab. ;D And yeah, I agree - she's jealous of Kim being the center of attention.
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Post by Ashfangirl20 on May 30, 2007 16:58:01 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Well, we all know she wants Ron, so maybe it's even more competition between the two. *ducks as anti-Ron/Bon people throw things* I'd say Its Bonnies jealous of Kim's/Ron's relationship and wants Ron all to herself ;D Yah I'm a bonnie/ron shipper so so what? LOL.
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on May 30, 2007 21:10:47 GMT -5
Psh, it's just sexual tension. Not everyone roots for the home team, nab. Actually, one of the most important insights into Bonnie's way of thinking is in So the Drama when she remarks to Kim, "Like it's all about you." Kim, of course, is angry because said Rockwaller just made the entire squad collapse its pyramid just so she could talk to Brick. Bonnie, however, does not see this. What she sees is Kim being mad because she put Brick's call above Kim's cheer routine. Why? Because, perhaps in part due to being raised with two older, malicious sisters, she's convinced that everyone is, in fact, self-centered and selfish like her. She has what might be called a postmodern sensibility, in the fact that she sees all actions, no matter how altruistic (like Kim's concern for her fellow cheerleaders, her "save the world" actions and what not) as "really" about getting more power, attention, guys etc. to yourself, even when it's not. So, well, that's why I think Bonnie hates Kim so much. She thinks she should have "the spotlight" in her class, after so many years of harassment by her sisters, but, in her mind, Kim decided to show her up. Just my 2 cents for now. Y'know, that makes me think... All Bon-Bon needs is life threatening danger, and a well-meaning "Pacha" type character. That, or the opposite of "It's a Wonderful Life", where it's BETTER with her gone. We all know it would be. Ok, I call that plotbunny for a reverse "It's a Wonderful Life".
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Post by yes4possible on May 30, 2007 21:55:58 GMT -5
Y'know, that makes me think... All Bon-Bon needs is life threatening danger, and a well-meaning "Pacha" type character. That, or the opposite of "It's a Wonderful Life", where it's BETTER with her gone. We all know it would be. Ok, I call that plotbunny for a reverse "It's a Wonderful Life". That is what I said before, if Kim ever saved Bonnie's life, than that might change their rivalory for ever.
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Post by brendank on May 30, 2007 23:27:36 GMT -5
Y'know, that makes me think... All Bon-Bon needs is life threatening danger, and a well-meaning "Pacha" type character. That, or the opposite of "It's a Wonderful Life", where it's BETTER with her gone. We all know it would be. Ok, I call that plotbunny for a reverse "It's a Wonderful Life". You mean like the Married with Children episode where Al has a guardian angle reveal to him what life would be like if he had never existed, he discovers that his family and everyone he knew would all be dramatically better off, and when the angel despairs about getting Al to want to go back to his life, Al responds that "After the hell they put me through, there is no way I'm letting them find this kind of happiness!"
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Post by unferthidol on Jun 1, 2007 19:00:01 GMT -5
Whisper hit the nail on the head. I'm rude to dumb, annoying, or irritating people. I'm a spaz or over reactive towards people I'm afraid I might be attracted to.
But, at the end of the day, theres only one type I hate enough to go out of my way to put down. Those who I feel are better off, whether genetically (easier time learning thing/more talent/more attractive), finicially (never missed events because they couldn't afford a cab, nice electronics) or situationally (Have loving parents, in a position of power I want, supportive friends network)...and didn't have to work to be better off in those ways. People who are blessed and I deem unworthy because I would appreciate those things more than they do. Jealousy/envy is the ultimate motivator to cause misery, I guess.
...and for the record...
'Psh, it's just sexual tension.'
After all those serious posts made me giggle. XD Nice break in the SERIOUS DISCUSSION.
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VRWC
Yellow Trout
I reject your reality and substitute my own
Posts: 122
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Post by VRWC on Jun 3, 2007 0:10:32 GMT -5
Something I notice about Kim and Bonnie's rivalry is how perspective and issue driven it is. I'd reject any characterization of them as 'enemies' rather they're opponents. Neither of them actually goes out of their way to put the other down or kick them when they're down, rather they're two people whose goals tend to put them at ends almost constantly.
Both of them seem to possess the ability to compartmentalize the rivalry and put it aside when it matters. This is the big difference between Kim and Shego's rivalry, Shego took out both Warmonga and Drakken when it looked like they were going to beat Kim instead of her. Bonnie gives no indication that she'd do the same if put in an equivalent predicament.
This being the case more-so in Seasons three and four I see it as Bonnie starting to get into the real world and the growth accompanying her getting away from her sisters. I wouldn't be surprised if later on in life Kim and Bonnie could actually get along rather well. Perhaps not out and out friends, but if they bent their considerable talents to the same end, well the show has already shown the results they can produce.
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Post by yes4possible on Jun 3, 2007 8:42:17 GMT -5
Out of all Kim's opponents Bonnie once in a while suceeds, in Number One, she said "I will be squad captin" and the end of the episode she was. She set a goal and accomplish it. Unlike the villains that set a goal of taking over the world at a beginning of an episode, they never suceed.
At the end of Number One, when Kim swallowed her pride and showed good sportsmenship and said "Bonnie you rock". Bonnie let her guard down, I expected her to say something like "Yeah of course I do" in a conceded way. But she said in excited way like a kid responded to his hero "Really", like Kim's comment meant a lot to her, and deep down she respects, maybe even admires Kim's ability.
Bonnie is a type of competitor, that is Kim showed good sportmenship, she has to show good sportsmenship as well, can't let Kim top her with good sportsmenship.
If Bonnie ever became an author, I think she might give Kim a dedictation for "Pushing me to do my best", or if later in life, she wins an award in something in her accpetion speech, she might give Kim a Thank You for pushing her to do her best. Later in life, people get more interspective.
Speaking of one of Bonnie's victories, other more dark shows like Gargoyles, Teen Titans, Avatar, once in a while the villain wins, the message being the heros don't always win. The Avatar episode Crossroads Of Destiny for example, the bad guys won. I am not calling Bonnie a villain, nor comparing her being head of the cheerleading squad to the Fire Nation conquering Ba Sing Se, but isn't her victories KP's way of saying the hero doesn't always win. Kim doesn't always win, she is human after all.
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