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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 7, 2007 16:01:56 GMT -5
Yes, I know it'll never happen. Note the wink. But, if I was running FF.NET, that's how things would work. Each section would have a moderator, who would delete fics that: a)break canon pairings or b) Have mutilated characters to the point of being new characters who stole the names. Seriously? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having the site at all? And beyond KP, what about, say, Friends, where pairings switch up every other episode? "That's not Canon! Ross and Rachel are Canon!" "No they're not! Ross is still married to that other girl!" ".....So?" Well, obviously there'd be wiggle room for things like that, or for soap operas, where pairings last a whole 5 minutes. But, otherwise, it would be the moderator's prerogative. Also: No, it wouldn't, ESPECIALLY point B. |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 7, 2007 16:09:20 GMT -5
Seriously? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having the site at all? And beyond KP, what about, say, Friends, where pairings switch up every other episode? "That's not Canon! Ross and Rachel are Canon!" "No they're not! Ross is still married to that other girl!" ".....So?" Well, obviously there'd be wiggle room for things like that, or for soap operas, where pairings last a whole 5 minutes. But, otherwise, it would be the moderator's prerogative. Also: No, it wouldn't, ESPECIALLY point B. Actually I agree on point B, but as far as the non-canon pairings being banned, that would cause a lot more problem than it would solve. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 7, 2007 16:11:32 GMT -5
Well, obviously there'd be wiggle room for things like that, or for soap operas, where pairings last a whole 5 minutes. But, otherwise, it would be the moderator's prerogative. Also: No, it wouldn't, ESPECIALLY point B. Actually I agree on point B, but as far as the non-canon pairings being banned, that would cause a lot more problem than it would solve. Well, I'd open a sister site, "Anti-canonical FanFiction" with no such moderators. There, it would be free game. There, problem solved. |
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 7, 2007 16:12:56 GMT -5
Well, look from our view. Fics that break up canon pairings are an INJUSTICE to the characters. A DISRESPECT to the creators. Ding Ding Ding. That's exactly how I feel. Can someone tell me, for starting, WHEN has one of the authors ever said that they feel, or would feel, offended by fanfics breaking canon pairings? I don't recall anything like that, and on the other hand, I recall one of the writters actually mentioning KiGo and not in a bad context. Poeple who ships Kim and Ron with other characters doesn't mean any harm nor disrespect to anybody! You guys are getting offended just because you choose to, and we shippers have no grief to hold because of that. And by realist, you're meaning intolerant. We might not like the same couples, but MrDrP and I have managed to have some polite conversation and, at least from my point of view, get along. The only reason for which you guys can't do the same is because can't respect other's views. Do you want something realistic? Here you got it: Peace is achieved by respect and tolerance. Deal! |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 7, 2007 16:15:36 GMT -5
Actually I agree on point B, but as far as the non-canon pairings being banned, that would cause a lot more problem than it would solve. Well, I'd open a sister site, "Anti-canonical FanFiction" with no such moderators. There, it would be free game. There, problem solved. ......huh. Oddly enough, I can't say that's a bad idea. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 7, 2007 16:21:45 GMT -5
Well, I'd open a sister site, "Anti-canonical FanFiction" with no such moderators. There, it would be free game. There, problem solved. ......huh. Oddly enough, I can't say that's a bad idea. And to think I made up that word (Anticanonical) for a KP rewrite of a MST3K song (Toobular Boobular Joy to Shegular Kigular Joy) in a MSTing of a Kigo fic that I never published. |
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 7, 2007 16:38:23 GMT -5
Well, I'd open a sister site, "Anti-canonical FanFiction" with no such moderators. There, it would be free game. There, problem solved. ......huh. Oddly enough, I can't say that's a bad idea. Yeah, right, like there's something like Canonical Fanfiction... for the sake of... -_-U |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 7, 2007 16:42:02 GMT -5
......huh. Oddly enough, I can't say that's a bad idea. Yeah, right, like there's something like Canonical Fanfiction... for the sake of... -_-U IMO, there are 2 divisions: Non-canonical (all) and anti-canonical (breaking canon explicitly). |
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Post by dracko19 on Oct 7, 2007 17:16:48 GMT -5
Really, you have 2 categories and they involve relationships.
1. Traditional - Respecting the canon relationships as they are
2. Radical - Pairings that have never occured on the show.
There are also 2 different types of stories as well
1. KP Universe (KU) - A story that could occur in the model that was created by the writers
2. Alternate Universe (AU) - A story that could never occur in the canon model.
I would assume KU would have to be on Disney. Therefore, if you have murder, death, hot sex, etc., that would be AU, even if the canon relationships were respected.
Does that sum it up?
Also, the K/R shippers in this thread are now pushing the envelope. I'm watching this thread closely.
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Post by MrDrP on Oct 7, 2007 20:15:39 GMT -5
Yes, I've heard of character development. But what BT is doing, and what I see happening in Kigo is character recreation. What BT did may be credible to you; it is not to me. By creating a story where an 18 year old winds up in a relationship with a middle-aged man, BT has taken a show designed for tweens to a very dark, scary place it was not meant to visit. Given enough time and words you can twist and recast characters any way you want. Want to turn Kim into a gun-toting vigilante? Why not? She already is prone to use violence to solve problems. Want to turn Kim into a homophobe? Easy enough. She’s uncomfortable around people with disabilities, so why not people of different sexual orientations? You have the right to interpret things as you wish and I respect that. But I don’t have to treat your interpretation as valid if I think it is wrong. The only reason Kim’s comment form "Showdown" is interpreted as implying she’s also into girls is because Kigo fans want to see something. The obvious explanation is that Kim doesn’t want her impressionable little cousin to think she’s boy-crazy. As for BT’s observation, you can thank him for helping me reach the insight that it's possible that Kim could be homophobic. I’ve acknowledged that others can interpret things as they wish and that I respect that right. But if I think that interpretation is wrong, I'm not going to treat it otherwise. "Dark and scary?" A consensual relationship between two adults is hardly dark, nor is it scary. A heterosexual rapist is dark and scary. An abusive heterosexual spouse or lover is dark and scary. It certainly is possible (pun intended) for Kim to become a gay-basher. Especially once her boyfriend elopes with Monty. (Ooh, plot bunny!) JUST AS POSSIBLE that she will end up the best lover Shego ever had. While it may go along with your dogma, however, I don't think that the same Disney would have allowed a character to be written who thinks it's OK to ridicule, demean, or defame someone because they are different from her. The -phobe suffix also means to hate. And gay (or black or asian or anything else)-hating Kim... THAT is dark and scary. A romantic relationship between an 18 year old teen and a man in his 40s is indeed dark and scary. The difference in age and experience would create a very unhealthy dynamic. Further, while an 18 year old may legally be an adult that doesn't mean adult maturity has been reached. I happen to agree that Kim hating anyone would be very out of character for the KP Universe. However, she was distinctly uncomfortable around Felix and made all sorts of negative assumptions about what he could do. Homophobia is generally understood to encompass that kind of unfounded discomfort around gay people. Given how Kim reacted to Felix, there's no reason to say she might not experience the same kind of discomfort around gays. Do I think she would? No. But it one's going to argue that the show offers the latitude for Kim to become gay, then they should concede there are enough gaps for her to be credibly portrayed as homophobic. |
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Post by MrDrP on Oct 7, 2007 20:18:35 GMT -5
Well, I'm trying to change your point of view. But I don't think I might have anything to worry about. All I'd care is for you not to claim that KiGo shippers are just writting nonsense, but overall, you've been one of the most respectful guys I've met around here. That's what I like about you.  Thanks for the compliment. And back atcha. Well, you guys do have those tasty cookies and you've always extended a nice welcome to this K/R fan. |
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cpneb
Yellow Trout
Posts: 69
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Post by cpneb on Oct 7, 2007 21:10:09 GMT -5
Well, you guys do have those tasty cookies and you've always extended a nice welcome to this K/R fan. COOKIES! That's what I've been doing wrong: I offered ice cream and cake, and it shoulda been cookies! My Bad.... |
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Post by slicknickshady on Oct 7, 2007 23:04:33 GMT -5
But it one's going to argue that the show offers the latitude for Kim to become gay, then they should concede there are enough gaps for her to be credibly portrayed as homophobic. Well said. |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 7, 2007 23:35:45 GMT -5
I had a friend in high school who's parents were almost 20 years apart in age, and their relationship seemed neither dark nor scary. Age difference isn't always a big deal. Now, if you wanna talk about something like OJ Simpson having a relationship with a woman who's about 30 years younger than him and looks nearly identical to his late ex-wife that he killed who's murder he was acquitted of, then yeah, THAT is dark and scary.
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 7, 2007 23:37:00 GMT -5
I happen to agree that Kim hating anyone would be very out of character for the KP Universe. However, she was distinctly uncomfortable around Felix and made all sorts of negative assumptions about what he could do. Homophobia is generally understood to encompass that kind of unfounded discomfort around gay people. Given how Kim reacted to Felix, there's no reason to say she might not experience the same kind of discomfort around gays. Do I think she would? No. But it one's going to argue that the show offers the latitude for Kim to become gay, then they should concede there are enough gaps for her to be credibly portrayed as homophobic. That's an interesting point of view. It actually makes her character a bit more human, I think. Personally, I don't find it that credible, since she has always been shown to respect others for what they are, even if she didn't like them (Larry and his hobbies) or wasn't comfortable around them (Felix and his condition) at the beginning. But yeah, I can totally see it happening. So, maybe it could be used as a way of character development for her, IMHO. And for the record, wanna know something funny? In one of the best KiGo fics I've read (And I mean it, one of the best), when Kim started to develop feelings for Shego, she was not just scared, she was horrified of the idea of being called a lesbian and about the reaction everybody else would have. Of course, she got over it later, but man, you should see how much character development the author managed to apply with this. (No, I don't expect you to read it, I'm just commenting) |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 7, 2007 23:48:48 GMT -5
Though I probably don't need to, I feel like pointing out that Kim eventually got over her uncomfortableness (or whatever you want to call it) with Felix. So using that as an example, it follows that even if she were uncomfortable with gays, it is likely that she would eventually become more comfortable with it if she knew someone personally who was gay.
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Post by MrDrP on Oct 8, 2007 7:03:17 GMT -5
Though I probably don't need to, I feel like pointing out that Kim eventually got over her uncomfortableness (or whatever you want to call it) with Felix. So using that as an example, it follows that even if she were uncomfortable with gays, it is likely that she would eventually become more comfortable with it if she knew someone personally who was gay. The Kim I know from the show would definitely get over her feelings of discomfort. The Kim who lives in a fan fic universe governed by rules that dictate what's not seen is possible, may well not. She could easily have different reactions to disabilities and homosexuality. |
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Post by Pim Peccable on Oct 8, 2007 7:24:22 GMT -5
Well, I'd open a sister site, "Anti-canonical FanFiction" with no such moderators. There, it would be free game. There, problem solved. ......huh. Oddly enough, I can't say that's a bad idea. I think a "canonic rating" within the same site would work better. We have content ratings, so just list how canonical it is in the stats. For instance, When I started "Team Stop", I put "AU" in the description. One of these days I'm going back to my early works and make them 'S4 Friendly'. It shouldn't be TOO hard. Mostly just mixing Hannah in. |
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Post by dracko19 on Oct 8, 2007 7:24:25 GMT -5
Attempts to get back on topic....
Ok, so from a canon perspective, the importance varies from author to author. Some think relationships established on the show need to be respected (OR ELSE~!). Other's disagree. That would be problem number 1.
Problem number 2 is that some feel that any story should be something that could occur in the KP Universe. Other's take great liberties with the show's framework and twist it to their desires. Enter problem number 2.
In regard to problem 2 above, there seems to be some dissention in regard to what is actually possible/plausible in a KP universe and what is not. Enter problem number 3.
My feeling is, problems 1 and 2 can be solved with a rating system (as proposed earlier). Problem number 3 can be easily solved if we all agree on a definition. I think the easiest definition would be "Disney" or "Non-Disney". If your story could be shown on Disney (the source of KP), then it would be KP Universe. If not (i.e. lesbian sex, mutilation, murder, etc.) then it would be Alternate Universe. A more simple classification would be "D" for Disney type story and "ND" for Non-Disney
From my earlier post:
So, you have four categories now: T/D T/ND R/D and R/ND, examples would be:
T/D = Kim and Ron get married (Relationships are still respect from the show and it could appear on Disney)
T/ND = Shego and Drakken kill Bonnie (Relationships are still respected, would not happen on Disney)
R/D = Kim dumps Ron for Junior (New relationship created that was not on the show, but could appear on Disney)
R/ND = Kim and Shego get it on at villians camp (New relationship + not a Disney story)
As a reader, you simply can choose what stories you like and avoid the offensive material. It would be a simple system once you got used to it.
....and isn't that the major problem here? What stories to avoid and how to distinguish them? The importance of canon to the READER is how they would choose their stories.
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Post by mike on Oct 8, 2007 7:44:47 GMT -5
Canon is only a basis of the story, the basic needs of a story. Is it important? Yes Of Course. But the real question is how important? Readers and Writers alike have their own tastes of Fiction close to reality or not? Typical Romance or Radical Romance? Every writer and reader employs a twist of imagination in fan-fiction because it is a form of literature. Everyone of us here likes to eliminate a portion of canon and replace it with something more appealing, Fiction. Even the words of the creators aren't the basis of a story, but it is on the words of the author. Preference is something each one of us has, each one of us has a different taste, a different belief. Only in Fiction does all of these come true, Not one of us can define something so subjective as preference. And that's the reason why fan-fiction exist because there is always a small part we dislike about Canon. Hence, Canon is important but the question remains "how important?"  |
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Thanks for the compliment. And back atcha.
