On the importance of Canon

[jakt]

Ouote from MrDrP: "As for the original script content on the web, no official source exists. I recall Brian Swenlin saying he hoped to posting his scripts on his site. I'm lucky enough to have official scripts for "Emotion Sickness" and "Ill Suited," so if you have questions about those episodes, feel free to send me a PM."

If you want the original scripts content use the closed captions (cc) option on your TV or VCR. The original Disney script content is used as the cc for their programs. This includes the spelling of names, terms, etc.

[Robbie Valiant, P.I.]

cpneb said:

So, I see the following categories:
Canon - up to and including season 4
Expanded Canon - expanding off existing episodes and beyond season 4
AU (non-canonical - would include any stories that branch off of the canonical episodes as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

Am I missing anything, or is it that simple?

Well, if you use the Watcher's definition of what constitutes an alternate universe (a universe where one or a few events have different outcomes), it would be
AU- Stories that branch off of the canonical episodes.
Imaginary Story- Non-canonical- stories with the characters that selectively acknowledge canon, as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

Not that Imaginary Story means any disrespect, it's the Watcher's wording, not mine. In What If #35, he says that definition in the prologue to the Marvel Imaginary Story scenarios therein.

[cpneb]

robbievaliant said:

cpneb said:

So, I see the following categories:
Canon - up to and including season 4
Expanded Canon - expanding off existing episodes and beyond season 4
AU (non-canonical - would include any stories that branch off of the canonical episodes as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

Am I missing anything, or is it that simple?

Well, if you use the Watcher's definition of what constitutes an alternate universe (a universe where one or a few events have different outcomes), it would be
AU- Stories that branch off of the canonical episodes.
Imaginary Story- Non-canonical- stories with the characters that selectively acknowledge canon, as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

Not that Imaginary Story means any disrespect, it's the Watcher's wording, not mine. In What If #35, he says that definition in the prologue to the Marvel Imaginary Story scenarios therein.

Sorry, but Watcher? not familiar with this (wait, Marvel: now I remember: it's been more than a few years since I dove in there.
I think that the original terminology is clearer to all and eliminates any perceived 'negative context' that the term 'Imaginary Story' would bring to the table.

I'm proposing the following:

So, I see the following categories:
Canon - up to and including season 4
Expanded Canon - expanding off existing episodes and beyond season 4
AU (non-canonical - would include any stories that branch off of the canonical episodes as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

KP Fan Law?

[NewSkool101]

cpneb said:

robbievaliant said:

Well, if you use the Watcher's definition of what constitutes an alternate universe (a universe where one or a few events have different outcomes), it would be
AU- Stories that branch off of the canonical episodes.
Imaginary Story- Non-canonical- stories with the characters that selectively acknowledge canon, as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

Not that Imaginary Story means any disrespect, it's the Watcher's wording, not mine. In What If #35, he says that definition in the prologue to the Marvel Imaginary Story scenarios therein.

Sorry, but Watcher? not familiar with this (wait, Marvel: now I remember: it's been more than a few years since I dove in there.
I think that the original terminology is clearer to all and eliminates any perceived 'negative context' that the term 'Imaginary Story' would bring to the table.

I'm proposing the following:

So, I see the following categories:
Canon - up to and including season 4
Expanded Canon - expanding off existing episodes and beyond season 4
AU (non-canonical - would include any stories that branch off of the canonical episodes as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, etc.

KP Fan Law?

*raises glass of cocoa-moo*

FAN LAW! [/ripoff of Miller Lite Man Law commercials]

On a side note, I need to know - when did RuGo become the 3rd most predominantly listed non-canonical pairings?

[Warmonga]

This message was deleted by the original poster.

[Ran Hakubi]

Neb, want me to explain that one or do you want to?

[MrDrP]

jakt said:

Ouote from MrDrP: "As for the original script content on the web, no official source exists. I recall Brian Swenlin saying he hoped to posting his scripts on his site. I'm lucky enough to have official scripts for "Emotion Sickness" and "Ill Suited," so if you have questions about those episodes, feel free to send me a PM."

If you want the original scripts content use the closed captions (cc) option on your TV or VCR. The original Disney script content is used as the cc for their programs. This includes the spelling of names, terms, etc.

A splendid idea. Real scripts, however, are the best: they come with actual stage direction!

[Commander Argus]

They also have a treasure trove of interesting silliness - like Dementor constantly saying "Sizzling Schnitzle in Ill Suited

[kinginyellow]

First, I don't think the closed captioning can be trusted. I'm pretty sure I saw names used with spellings different from how they appear in the credits. But since I can't recall the episode for positive I won't swear to that.

I would also argue that all fanfictions are AU. Some diverge more radically than others from the original storyline. But they all diverge or you'd just be writing transcripts of the original. Attempts to draw firm lines and say, "If you're this close to canon your story is 'X', this close to canon and your story is 'Y', and this far from canon and your story is 'Z' are doomed to failure. It is a continuum and not neat and mutually exclusive categories.

And finally, will any of those who swear by canon do anything with the fact Ron said he wasn't potty trained until a sophomore in high school? That was on the show. Maybe it explains why he can get out of his pants so fast. It's canon, people. (I have always argued that 'canon' itself is inconsistent. And if you think otherwise you aren't watching closely enough. But if you argue it is, Ron himself made the comment about late potty training.) Maybe an unfortunate incident is why Barkin was down on Ron. I won't touch it. Eschatology maybe, scatology no.

KiY

[JuPMod]

kinginyellow said:

And finally, will any of those who swear by canon do anything with the fact Ron said he wasn't potty trained until a sophomore in high school? That was on the show. Maybe it explains why he can get out of his pants so fast. It's canon, people. (I have always argued that 'canon' itself is inconsistent. And if you think otherwise you aren't watching closely enough. But if you argue it is, Ron himself made the comment about late potty training.) Maybe an unfortunate incident is why Barkin was down on Ron. I won't touch it. Eschatology maybe, scatology no.

(snicker) This is why I don't take every detail of canon in consideration for my fics. I know some lines and stuff in canon just will not make sense if one is writing a serious fic. It'll just be hard to explain such things knowing they were made in canon just for the moment humor.

Of course that potty line can be use humorfully in a humor fic though. ;D

[MrDrP]

kinginyellow said:

And finally, will any of those who swear by canon do anything with the fact Ron said he wasn't potty trained until a sophomore in high school? That was on the show. Maybe it explains why he can get out of his pants so fast. It's canon, people. (I have always argued that 'canon' itself is inconsistent. And if you think otherwise you aren't watching closely enough. But if you argue it is, Ron himself made the comment about late potty training.) Maybe an unfortunate incident is why Barkin was down on Ron. I won't touch it. Eschatology maybe, scatology no.

KiY

Okay, let's take Ron's potty comment at face value. Why does it matter? Should I now hold Ron in contempt? Is this to be taken as a reason he's not good enough for Kim? Clearly it didn't interfere with Ron's friendship with Ron when they were growing up nor with their earliest missions. And clearly it doesn't bother Kim now; she's obviously still with Ron after the comment. Heck, this could even be used in a fanfic:

Ron was losing his patience. Stoppable fil was once again refusing to use the potty. "Come on, Jon, you can do this," he said. "I mean you're two already!"

"Hypocritical much?" Kim asked her husband. "If I recall you took alot longer ..."

Ron's cheeks blossomed crimson. "Okay, KP, point made. Maybe we just need to watch the Flippies again ..."

[kinginyellow]

Take it at face value and it is yet another example of the contempt the writers treated Ron with for most of season 4. He cheated at school, stole Kim's clothes to impress her, ate himself fat... The cage he claims is armour in Captain Ddrakken. In the fall, Homecoming, he had enough compassion to take Bonnie's crown along to make her feel better. In the Valentine's Day show (which would have been set some eight or nine months after he started dating Kim he handed her a toothbrush. Nine of months of dating her and he couldn't think that Valentine's Day was coming? Kim has to remind him, "Hey, we're dating."? He makes her watch him play the giant claw machine for hours on end...

MrDrP, I've seen your efforts to turn these into positives. I think you are bending over so far... No, won't go with that analogy. You've bent over backwards to claim that the portrayal of Ron was consistently loving and caring, hampered only by his lack of romantic experience. Sorry, he is shown as an inconsiderate clod. He matured through the first three seasons. They had nowhere to go with character development after season 3 so they regressed him for season 4 and I feel like you are straining out gnats and swallowing camels if you miss that.

KiY

[MrDrP]

kinginyellow said:

Take it at face value and it is yet another example of the contempt the writers treated Ron with for most of season 4. He cheated at school, stole Kim's clothes to impress her, ate himself fat... The cage he claims is armour in Captain Ddrakken. In the fall, Homecoming, he had enough compassion to take Bonnie's crown along to make her feel better. In the Valentine's Day show (which would have been set some eight or nine months after he started dating Kim he handed her a toothbrush. Nine of months of dating her and he couldn't think that Valentine's Day was coming? Kim has to remind him, "Hey, we're dating."? He makes her watch him play the giant claw machine for hours on end...

MrDrP, I've seen your efforts to turn these into positives. I think you are bending over so far... No, won't go with that analogy. You've bent over backwards to claim that the portrayal of Ron was consistently loving and caring, hampered only by his lack of romantic experience. Sorry, he is shown as an inconsiderate clod. He matured through the first three seasons. They had nowhere to go with character development after season 3 so they regressed him for season 4 and I feel like you are straining out gnats and swallowing camels if you miss that.

KiY

I'm not suggesting the potty training comment was a positive. The writers said Corporate wanted more comic relief and that meant the jokes came at Ron's expense.

We've had this conversation before. You insist on ignoring any positive elements in Ron's character portrayal this season. Ron going out onto the field to play QB without suit even if it might mean certain humiliation? Doesn't matter. Ron overcoming his actuarilly-induced fears of injury to rescue Kim? Doesn't matter. Ron sticking by her during her amnesia even though she doesn't remember dating him? Doesn't matter. Ron's clear look of concern when Kim doesn't win Homecoming Queen? Doesn't matter. Ron applying himself to his job at Smarty Mart? Doesn't matter. And of course it's an inconsiderate clod who decides that the first thing to do during the middle of an alien invasion is to find a rocket and go rescue his girlfriend.

As I've written elsewhere, I believe that people's approach to the issue of Ron's portrayal is tied to their shipping preference. K/R fans focus on the positive, Kigo fans the negative.

[MrDrP]

This message was deleted by the original poster.

[cpneb]

After much discussion (lively and otherwise) with multiple individuals across and on multiple forum boards, I have consolidated the suggestions and have proposed the following KP story categories/labels as options for clarification by writers to readers:

o Canon[/i] - up to and including season 4
o Expanded Canon[/i] - expanding off existing episodes and beyond season 4; this would also include prequels (prior to season 1 of the actual show).
o AU(non-canonical)[/i] - would include any stories that branch off of the canonical episodes as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, KiBo, KiMon, MoRon, etc.

Using cpneb's works as examples:
o JadeKimVerse would be Expanded Canon
o DefineHell Verse would be AU.

There is a poll in operation on ff.net asking for feedback on these categories as unofficial KP Fan Law: yes or no. This is the link to the poll: www.fanfiction.net/topic/36496/2982914/1/#2984773 (it's under the Poll Vault forum).

Your vote is appreciated. This is an attempt to work with all writers/readers to ease the issues/ship arguments that appear periodically throughout multiple forums.

...cpneb

[kinginyellow]

MrDrP,
I am not certain if I am misrepresenting you in this discussion. But you continue to misrepresent me. I don't take my position because I dislike Ron. I take my position because I believe he was treated shabbily in season 4. And I think you even admit it in this post- you say it was because the writers were told to include more comedy relief and not an inability to mature the relationship, but it boils down (as I read your words) to admitting he wasn't treated well. And in the KP Discussion forum quite a number of K/R shippers have expressed the same frustration - usually followed by a post from you explaining how the writer missed the obvious - Ron treats Kim poorly because he loves her so much. You really need to drop the charge I'm saying this because I write KiGo, there are too many K/R shippers expressing the same trouble.

KiY

If I am misrepresenting you let me know where. I do think your dedication to the K/R pairing has mightily influenced your perceptions for the season. And you may feel I am in denial when I say the fact I write KiGo has made me see Ron as treated poorly. But you then have to deal with all the K/R shippers who agree with me. Are they all closet KiGophiles?

[NewSkool101]

mrdrp said:

kinginyellow said:

Take it at face value and it is yet another example of the contempt the writers treated Ron with for most of season 4. He cheated at school, stole Kim's clothes to impress her, ate himself fat... The cage he claims is armour in Captain Ddrakken. In the fall, Homecoming, he had enough compassion to take Bonnie's crown along to make her feel better. In the Valentine's Day show (which would have been set some eight or nine months after he started dating Kim he handed her a toothbrush. Nine of months of dating her and he couldn't think that Valentine's Day was coming? Kim has to remind him, "Hey, we're dating."? He makes her watch him play the giant claw machine for hours on end...

MrDrP, I've seen your efforts to turn these into positives. I think you are bending over so far... No, won't go with that analogy. You've bent over backwards to claim that the portrayal of Ron was consistently loving and caring, hampered only by his lack of romantic experience. Sorry, he is shown as an inconsiderate clod. He matured through the first three seasons. They had nowhere to go with character development after season 3 so they regressed him for season 4 and I feel like you are straining out gnats and swallowing camels if you miss that.

KiY

I'm not suggesting the potty training comment was a positive. The writers said Corporate wanted more comic relief and that meant the jokes came at Ron's expense.

We've had this conversation before. You insist on ignoring any positive elements in Ron's character portrayal this season. As I've said elsewhere, I believe that people's approach to the issue of Ron's portrayal is tied to their shipping preference. K/R fans focus on the positive, Kigo fans the negative.

As someone who avoids shipping (for the record, I'm a fan of K/R who enjoys reading well written fics regardless of the pairing) I pay attention to both the positives AND the negatives. While it is hard to deny that Ron gets more character development in season 4 that anyone else, it is equally hard to deny that Ron goes through extreme cases of regression simply for the sake of comedy. I consider it a necessary, yet annoying reminder that it is in fact, a kid's show.

[MrDrP]

kinginyellow said:

MrDrP,
I am not certain if I am misrepresenting you in this discussion. But you continue to misrepresent me. I don't take my position because I dislike Ron. I take my position because I believe he was treated shabbily in season 4.

I did not say you dislike Ron. In fact, you have noted in many places that you are fond of his character. What you dislike is K/R and I believe that affects your perceptions.

And I think you even admit it in this post [the one which was deleted]

The post that was deleted had to do with your comment that I was "bending over so far ..." I decided that rather infelicitous remark didn't warrant a reply.

- you say it was because the writers were told to include more comedy relief and not an inability to mature the relationship, but it boils down (as I read your words) to admitting he wasn't treated well. And in the KP Discussion forum quite a number of K/R shippers have expressed the same frustration - usually followed by a post from you explaining how the writer missed the obvious - Ron treats Kim poorly because he loves her so much.

Yes, I'll qualify that as misrepresenting my position. I have never denied that Ron's done some truly stupid things this season (if I have, please show me examples and I will readily recant). And I have definitely never said Ron treats Kim poorly because he loves her so much.

What I have done is tried to offer some context for some of his actions and also some positive examples of what he has done for Kim (e.g., as noted above, during the midst of an alien invasion, Ron Stoppable, the "inconsiderate clod" as you have dubbed him, did the first thing that any thoughtless boor would do in such a situation: find a rocket ship so he could rescue his GF from the heavily armed invaders).

You really need to drop the charge I'm saying this because I write KiGo, there are too many K/R shippers expressing the same trouble.

When I made a similar observation, not charge, over at Zaratan's forum you suggested I might have a point.

If I am misrepresenting you let me know where. I do think your dedication to the K/R pairing has mightily influenced your perceptions for the season. And you may feel I am in denial when I say the fact I write KiGo has made me see Ron as treated poorly. But you then have to deal with all the K/R shippers who agree with me. Are they all closet KiGophiles?

No, they are not (besides who are "all of the K/R shippers" to whom you refer?).

I do think that your being a Kigo fan affects your perceptions of the show no less than my being a K/R fan affects mine. We watch the same show but come to radically different conclusions about what's occurring.

[MrDrP]

In making an addition to my previous post I somehow managed to double-post. There's no need to read what I wrote twice!

[Alexlayer]

cpneb said:

After much discussion (lively and otherwise) with multiple individuals across and on multiple forum boards, I have consolidated the suggestions and have proposed the following KP story categories/labels as options for clarification by writers to readers:

o Canon

[/i] - up to and including season 4
o Expanded Canon[/i] - expanding off existing episodes and beyond season 4; this would also include prequels (prior to season 1 of the actual show).
o AU(non-canonical)[/i] - would include any stories that branch off of the canonical episodes as well as KiGo, RonBon, RuGo, KiBo, KiMon, MoRon, etc.

Using cpneb's works as examples:
o JadeKimVerse would be Expanded Canon
o DefineHell Verse would be AU.

There is a poll in operation on ff.net asking for feedback on these categories as unofficial KP Fan Law: yes or no. This is the link to the poll: www.fanfiction.net/topic/36496/2982914/1/#2984773 (it's under the Poll Vault forum).

Your vote is appreciated. This is an attempt to work with all writers/readers to ease the issues/ship arguments that appear periodically throughout multiple forums.

...cpneb[/quote]

I seriously got to dissagree with this, because, honestly speaking, it makes no sense at all.

First things first, how can a fanfic be possibly labeled as "Canon"? EVERY fanfiction, regardless of the pairing, is non-canon. Even if it is cronologically sited between the events of canon, it is still not canon.

And the other two would not make sence. The term "AU" (Altern Universe) is used when the fanfic is based on a totally different world, not when just some events are change and/or mixed. Beeftony's fic, "The Gift", practically makes a remake of Kim and Ron starting college, but they are sited in the very same universe we know from the show, so I don't think you could call this an "Altern Universe".

Besides, what about the fanfics that were written post-Season 3 under the concept of "Expanded Canon" and before Season 4 finally came up? Those would have their labels changed with us having no control over it if we'd follow that law.

And why must the shipping fics be cataloged as "Altern Universe"? Is it that you find it so impossible to actually happen? And what about a KiGo fic that's placed post-Season 4? Wouldn't that be a "Expanded Canon" fic instead of an AU? And what about the Shipping fics that are based on Canon events? Like, for example, suggesting that Shego might have fallen in love with Kim during the events of "Stop Team Go".

As I said, those labels/ideas make totally no sense.