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Post by JuPMod on Oct 7, 2007 6:21:23 GMT -5
Shipper: "fan of a relationship between two characters" Canon: "what we SEE and HEAR on the actual show" I think there are many definitions for "relationship" and I believe a "friendship" would certain qualify. Therefore...since Kim and Shego became friends in STG and they certainly got along well in Graduation, we can now say KIGO is canon, can we not? I don't think so. For more than a decade, ever since I started reading and writing fanfiction back in 1996, I read about certain fanfiction codes that helps people understand if a fic will be friendship or romantic. If a slash (/) is shown between two characters, it indicates the fic would be a romance fic between those two characters. Kim/Ron. If an And (&) is used, it indicates a friendship fic between those two characters. Kim&Ron. This particular fanfic coding did help a lot for readers to understand what to expect in the fic. Now I understand that KiGo is a shorter version of Kim/Shego. The slash to me indicates a romantic fic, not friendship. Thus to say KiGo represents also friendship is not right given the coding for friendship is different than romance. Thus how can anyone tell if a particular KiGo fic is romantic or just friendship between the two characters if we go about saying that it represents both? (shakes head) No, I really believe we should not broaden that concept further to make readers even more confuse regardless of the shipper pairing. KiGo, Rori, RonBon, etc. are all short versions of the romantic pairings of Kim/Shego, Ron/Yori, Ron/Bonnie, etc. If a writer makes a friendship fic between two characters, it's best the writer uses the friendship code - Kim&Shego - and not the romance code. |
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Post by BigBlue4u2 on Oct 7, 2007 6:50:21 GMT -5
Yes, I've heard of character development. But what BT is doing, and what I see happening in Kigo is character recreation. What BT did may be credible to you; it is not to me. By creating a story where an 18 year old winds up in a relationship with a middle-aged man, BT has taken a show designed for tweens to a very dark, scary place it was not meant to visit. Given enough time and words you can twist and recast characters any way you want. Want to turn Kim into a gun-toting vigilante? Why not? She already is prone to use violence to solve problems. Want to turn Kim into a homophobe? Easy enough. She’s uncomfortable around people with disabilities, so why not people of different sexual orientations? You have the right to interpret things as you wish and I respect that. But I don’t have to treat your interpretation as valid if I think it is wrong. The only reason Kim’s comment form "Showdown" is interpreted as implying she’s also into girls is because Kigo fans want to see something. The obvious explanation is that Kim doesn’t want her impressionable little cousin to think she’s boy-crazy. As for BT’s observation, you can thank him for helping me reach the insight that it's possible that Kim could be homophobic. I’ve acknowledged that others can interpret things as they wish and that I respect that right. But if I think that interpretation is wrong, I'm not going to treat it otherwise. "Dark and scary?" A consensual relationship between two adults is hardly dark, nor is it scary. A heterosexual rapist is dark and scary. An abusive heterosexual spouse or lover is dark and scary. It certainly is possible (pun intended) for Kim to become a gay-basher. Especially once her boyfriend elopes with Monty. (Ooh, plot bunny!) JUST AS POSSIBLE that she will end up the best lover Shego ever had. While it may go along with your dogma, however, I don't think that the same Disney would have allowed a character to be written who thinks it's OK to ridicule, demean, or defame someone because they are different from her. The -phobe suffix also means to hate. And gay (or black or asian or anything else)-hating Kim... THAT is dark and scary. |
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Post by BigBlue4u2 on Oct 7, 2007 7:23:52 GMT -5
It's allright. I don't ask you to treat my, or others', interpretations as right, but as matter of respectfulness, I'd expect you wouldn't consider them as something unthinkable in the KP universe, or think that we're portraying the characters totally OOC. Alex, you’re essentially asking me to believe what I don’t believe. I don’t see a Kim/Shego lesbian relationship as possible in the KP universe, not the one I’ve seen in watching 87 episodes. And I do see Kim dumping Ron, coming out of the closet, and hooking up with Shego romantically as totally OOC. I’m sorry if you feel that’s disrespectful, but that’s how I see things based on my understanding of the show, its characters and universe. No one is asking you to believe anything. What I am opposed to is a rating system that seems biased against same-sex relationships. I haven't heard it proposed to consider the Drakken/Shego fanfic stories entirely impossible, although there was no overt canon relationship between the two. The Graduation stuff can easily be dismissed as invented subtext by people who want to see D/S happen. As far as "what could possibly happen" in the KP universe, COME ON!  In S4, SPACE ALIENS attack the Earth with indestructible robots that can be destroyed by mutant plant creatures, and a the last moment, the deus ex machina is the goofy sidekick who suddenly manifests a demigod-like imitation of a DragonBallZ character and throws the aliens into space? And yes, before the uber-canonites quote that to smite me with my own words.... YES, it was written from above, it is canon that all that happened. And I'm OK with that. Here is my point. If all that *points up* can happen in the KP universe, then I find it pretty believeable that there could be a same-sex couple. Not that there has to be, but why is that so crazy an idea? And as far as the ratings go, I think the current system makes it quite easy to navigate through the fics AS-IS. I don't think another level of division is needed. Asking me to come up with an alternative to chicken is pretty silly when I'm not even hungry. Anyway, that's my two (or three) cents. I don't imagine I'm going to change any minds, but well... It's fun to try I guess... ;D |
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Post by dracko19 on Oct 7, 2007 7:56:16 GMT -5
When we are talking about the "KP universe", I'm assuming we are talking about the show as it lies at the moment with S1-S4 and STD, correct? So, for example, it would be completely plausible to assume that Zita could have said to Malcolm "not interested" if he was to ask her out. And it would be safe to assume that Dr. P never ran through Smarty Mart naked singing Jingle bells, correct?
The things I just mentioned are fairly easy to figure out if it "could have happened" or not. But, there are many "plot" ideas that can skirt the fine line between "plausible" and "fantasy". For example:
Did Kim and Ron have sex?
Did Shego get romantically involved with Junior?
etc..
Now, in the "KP Universe", do we have to assume that it is still running on Disney Channel? Because that plays into the "plausible" vs. "fantasy" interpetations. If we are NOT on Disney Channel and the characters are now free to do as they choose without censorship, then all kind of walls can be broken and still considered "plausible", don't you think?
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Post by Commander Argus on Oct 7, 2007 8:31:36 GMT -5
Dracko sez
With buddies like Ramesh and Chen, who knows.
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Post by mike on Oct 7, 2007 8:44:54 GMT -5
And it would be safe to assume that Dr. P never ran through Smarty Mart naked singing Jingle bells, correct? Haha... I'm sorry but the thought made me laugh... jingle bells.. jingle bells... jingle all the way.... |
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Post by yvj on Oct 7, 2007 8:59:08 GMT -5
I see this discussion (as all discussions usually do) is slowly sliding into a debate about shipping preferences.
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Post by mike on Oct 7, 2007 9:01:21 GMT -5
Is it really that common  |
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 7, 2007 11:45:08 GMT -5
I see this discussion (as all discussions usually do) is slowly sliding into a debate about shipping preferences. I don't, and I really don't see the need to. It's allright. I don't ask you to treat my, or others', interpretations as right, but as matter of respectfulness, I'd expect you wouldn't consider them as something unthinkable in the KP universe, or think that we're portraying the characters totally OOC. Alex, you’re essentially asking me to believe what I don’t believe. I don’t see a Kim/Shego lesbian relationship as possible in the KP universe, not the one I’ve seen in watching 87 episodes. And I do see Kim dumping Ron, coming out of the closet, and hooking up with Shego romantically as totally OOC. I’m sorry if you feel that’s disrespectful, but that’s how I see things based on my understanding of the show, its characters and universe. Well, I'm trying to change your point of view. But I don't think I might have anything to worry about. All I'd care is for you not to claim that KiGo shippers are just writting nonsense, but overall, you've been one of the most respectful guys I've met around here. That's what I like about you. You even went to the Slash Haven to share opinions and we could have some nice conversations without causing any rambling.  |
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Post by BigBlue4u2 on Oct 7, 2007 11:59:43 GMT -5
When we are talking about the "KP universe", I'm assuming we are talking about the show as it lies at the moment with S1-S4 and STD, correct? So, for example, it would be completely plausible to assume that Zita could have said to Malcolm "not interested" if he was to ask her out. And it would be safe to assume that Dr. P never ran through Smarty Mart naked singing Jingle bells, correct? The things I just mentioned are fairly easy to figure out if it "could have happened" or not. But, there are many "plot" ideas that can skirt the fine line between "plausible" and "fantasy". For example: Did Kim and Ron have sex? Did Shego get romantically involved with Junior? etc.. Now, in the "KP Universe", do we have to assume that it is still running on Disney Channel? Because that plays into the "plausible" vs. "fantasy" interpetations. If we are NOT on Disney Channel and the characters are now free to do as they choose without censorship, then all kind of walls can be broken and still considered "plausible", don't you think? It's a little tough to say that something could never happen. Kim was nude in StD in two scenes that I can think of (Club Banana dressing room and on the beach at the Bermuda Triangle). It was done tastefully. It is entirely plausible to me that Mr. Dr. P could have run through Smarty Mart naked. Disney wouldn't have to show us his jingle bells for us to know what was happening. With all the mind-altering plot devices that have been used on the show already, it's not very far-fetched. Is it likely? No. It is possible? Most assuredly. Whether we're talking about characterization or content, what it really comes down to is the relationship between the writer and the reader. If the reader doesn't buy it, then there you are. If the reader does buy the story, and enjoys it, then boo-ya! As far as canon vs. alternate universes go, what about this? Canon has its own Alt Univ. Remember a Sitch in Time? That whole dystopian future is alternate universe. It never happened. Except that it did happen, we saw it. We heard it. But the time stream was reset, so it never happened. This is all much ado about nothing. Read, write, enjoy. Rinse, repeat. A story about Kim and Ron getting married and having kids is just as non-canonical as one wherein Ron becomes the evil monkey ruler of Earth, kills Kim, and takes MF as his personal simian concubine.  |
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Post by yvj on Oct 7, 2007 12:09:10 GMT -5
I see this discussion (as all discussions usually do) is slowly sliding into a debate about shipping preferences. I don't, and I really don't see the need to I'm not saying I want it to I'm saying I can see it turning towards that general direction. And really let's be honest I know that there a few people here who don't care either way but if anything (which I doubt) actually comes out of any of this, it will be probably be motivated by shipping preferences. I've only seen two or three truly objective people in this discussion. [/Cynical] |
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Post by yvj on Oct 7, 2007 12:21:00 GMT -5
When we are talking about the "KP universe", I'm assuming we are talking about the show as it lies at the moment with S1-S4 and STD, correct? So, for example, it would be completely plausible to assume that Zita could have said to Malcolm "not interested" if he was to ask her out. And it would be safe to assume that Dr. P never ran through Smarty Mart naked singing Jingle bells, correct? The things I just mentioned are fairly easy to figure out if it "could have happened" or not. But, there are many "plot" ideas that can skirt the fine line between "plausible" and "fantasy". For example: Did Kim and Ron have sex? Did Shego get romantically involved with Junior? etc.. Now, in the "KP Universe", do we have to assume that it is still running on Disney Channel? Because that plays into the "plausible" vs. "fantasy" interpetations. If we are NOT on Disney Channel and the characters are now free to do as they choose without censorship, then all kind of walls can be broken and still considered "plausible", don't you think? It's a little tough to say that something could never happen. Kim was nude in StD in two scenes that I can think of (Club Banana dressing room and on the beach at the Bermuda Triangle). It was done tastefully. It is entirely plausible to me that Mr. Dr. P could have run through Smarty Mart naked. Disney wouldn't have to show us his jingle bells for us to know what was happening. With all the mind-altering plot devices that have been used on the show already, it's not very far-fetched. Is it likely? No. It is possible? Most assuredly. Whether we're talking about characterization or content, what it really comes down to is the relationship between the writer and the reader. If the reader doesn't buy it, then there you are. If the reader does buy the story, and enjoys it, then boo-ya! As far as canon vs. alternate universes go, what about this? Canon has its own Alt Univ. Remember a Sitch in Time? That whole dystopian future is alternate universe. It never happened. Except that it did happen, we saw it. We heard it. But the time stream was reset, so it never happened. This is all much ado about nothing. Read, write, enjoy. Rinse, repeat. A story about Kim and Ron getting married and having kids is just as non-canonical as one wherein Ron becomes the evil monkey ruler of Earth, kills Kim, and takes MF as his personal simian concubine. I don't know how you said that last sentence with a straight face  Funny thing is some people don't even buy canon. They basically rewrite the show to their liking. (Which is exactly what many fanfic authors do) You make some good points, though I will say (unsurprisingly) I lean towards the same side of the fence MrDrP has made a case for. |
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Post by slicknickshady on Oct 7, 2007 12:51:24 GMT -5
The show is on Disney channel. It was created for the Disney channel. So I don't understand why people are bringing up if it was on another network other possibilities would have been explored. The creators would still be the same people. There is no evidence that would make anybody believe the story would have came out different on another channel. So I think we have to assume it's Disney.
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cpneb
Yellow Trout
Posts: 69
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Post by cpneb on Oct 7, 2007 13:49:55 GMT -5
The show is on Disney channel. It was created for the Disney channel. So I don't understand why people are bringing up if it was on another network other possibilities would have been explored. The creators would still be the same people. There is no evidence that would make anybody believe the story would have came out different on another channel. So I think we have to assume it's Disney. Basically, I've seen three points of view (sorry for categorizing them, but it's easier to explain that way): on one end of the spectrum, there are people who believe that K/R is the only 'possibility' based on the episodes on the show and their interpretation of same. on another end of the spectrum, there are people who believe that the show is a blank canvas on which alternate 'possibilities' can be painted. These alternatives include alternate pairings (same-sex and other heterosexual pairings) as well other times, universes, and crossovers to other universes, both animated and real-life. There appears to be a third group of people who like varying degrees of both ends of the spectrum as well as writing that expands on the K/R universe (a recent story explaining Steve Barkin's remark about jellyfish in "Stop Team Go" comes to mind. I will not dare to proclaim any grouping correct or incorrect because I read stories in almost every category and pairings. I freely admit that I have written in most, if not all, pairings, including Boliver (A friendship Betty/Oliver pairing) and MoRon (Monique/Ron (Reger). So far, on this latest set of discussions over the past few days, I've welcomed the targeting of my ideas proposed rather than each of your, for I have no problem taking the shots if it allows the discussion to move forward. Canon v. Fanon, K/R v. KiGo, AU v. 'reality:' all are 'Possible,' in my book. I read for the story. I understand that particular folks have their passion, and I commend them for that passion. The good news is that that passion has not gotten out of hand, yet or once again. Before it deteriorates into a shipping war, I request that you stop and think, all of you: Is this what Kim would want to be her legacy: people arguing about her and her life? I don't think so; I believe that she would want people to enjoy her stories and allow her to enjoy her (forced) retirement with whomever you believe she is with, pending the 'possible' day that she returns;. For Kim? Please? |
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Post by slicknickshady on Oct 7, 2007 14:03:23 GMT -5
No! Kim would want people to put her with Ron and Nobody else. I'm basing this on what TPTB have said and what I have seen on the show. I'm not bringing in any of my own views into it. I'm only bringing facts to the table. |
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cpneb
Yellow Trout
Posts: 69
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Post by cpneb on Oct 7, 2007 14:23:23 GMT -5
Is this what Kim would want to be her legacy: people arguing about her and her life? I don't think so; I believe that she would want people to enjoy her stories and allow her to enjoy her (forced) retirement with whomever you believe she is with, pending the 'possible' day that she returns;. For Kim? Please? No! Kim would want people to put her with Ron and Nobody else. I'm basing this on what TPTB have said and what I have seen on the show. I'm not bringing in any of my own views into it. I'm only bringing facts to the table. My question, sir, was not about the ship; it was about Kim's legacy of being the subject of arguments. If she could even get along with Bonnie.... |
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Post by slicknickshady on Oct 7, 2007 14:25:56 GMT -5
I think some people have too high of expectations for the fandom.
The arguing will never stop. Her legacy will always be the subject of arguments. It will never change.
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 7, 2007 14:36:50 GMT -5
Slick, do you realize that it is because of attitudes like yours that this fandom will never be at peace?
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Post by slicknickshady on Oct 7, 2007 14:38:49 GMT -5
Slick, do you realize that it is because of attitudes like yours that this fandom will never be at peace? I'm a realist. |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 7, 2007 14:41:18 GMT -5
I think some people have too high of expectations for the fandom. The arguing will never stop. Her legacy will always be the subject of arguments. It will never change. It's attitudes like that that keep arguments going. The sooner people A) find a compromise or B) agree to disagree, the sooner all this arguing can end. |
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In S4, SPACE ALIENS attack the Earth with indestructible robots that can be destroyed by mutant plant creatures, and a the last moment, the deus ex machina is the goofy sidekick who suddenly manifests a demigod-like imitation of a DragonBallZ character and throws the aliens into space?
