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Post by Alexlayer on Mar 27, 2008 18:57:02 GMT -5
Man, this thread has surely taken many ways. At this point, I think Darth Comrade is right with saying there’s not much more to discuss anyway. And I guess it is getting a bit repetitive. However, I think there’re a couple of things I got to reply to.
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Baby Blue. I think you’re a bit confused with some things. Yeah, KiGo and its shipper are protected, but that’s just like with any other Pairing. I suppose you might think KiGo gets more attention, but that’s just because it’s also the most attacked pairing (And that’s what I meant with “getting the short end of the stick”). Other pairings have also gotten its worthy protection. The “Anti-D/S Ranting Thread” (to call it somehow) in which I shamefully took part in was also called to attention, and eventually closed.
But besides that case, I don’t recall any case of K/R or D/S ranting or a group of people expressing hate towards it. I’d admit some KiGo Shippers have disapproving points regarding the pairing, but I don’t recall them making “Hate Threads” about it. Please correct me if I’m wrong, though.
And like you, I don’t see any sense in “Hate Threads”, either. I hope this doesn't become one.
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Mickey, regarding your question… (And anyone not interested in reading some KiGo-ish perspective/opinion can skip to the next part).
Well, NewSkool already explained it a bit, but I think your misunderstanding is because we may have different opinion on what the Attitudinator does. (Which, considering the many different opinions I’ve heard, I’d say it’s nearly as ambiguous as whatever Shego was going to say at the end of the episode). Many would argue that Miss Go (Good Shego) got along with Kim just because “Bad Shego” wouldn’t, but I differ on that. It’s pretty clear that the Attitudinator somewhat inverse the character’s levels of good and evil. However, I don’t think it changes one’s interest. Ron/Zorpox is a good example of this. Being evil, he still wanted what he wanted when being good (Nacos in “Bad Boy” and Kim in “Stop Team Go”, he wanted to turn her evil). So, I’d say that Miss Go isn’t really that different from the original Shego. She just showed things and traits of herself that the Bad Shego would never show because of having an evil reputation to keep.
That, and like it was pointed out already, Kim treated Shego very well like to think she still hates her. Like NewSkool exampled, “Homecoming Upset” gave a clear impression of how Kim acts with someone she really doesn’t like. I guess.
So, in short and overall, this episode proved to me that the only thing stopping Kim and Shego from getting along is the fact that they are in opposite bands. This also goes along the small talks they have from time to time, like if it were the “possible friendship” trying to surface.
But well, this is just my opinion. You may have your own different one and I’m completely okay with that. I’m just answering your question. I hope I was clear enough.
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Yvs, this may sound harsh, but I can hardly believe that your post was not intended with any malice at all. I mean… what point were you trying to make!? By looking at it, it almost looks like you just grabbed any paragraph of my post that you could contradict and did so, but in doing it, you used arguments I myself have already stated.
I never said KiGo shippers played it nicely. I already acknowledged that we made our mistakes in the past and that we just weren’t the nicest either. We’re just not perfect. However, there IS a difference, and that’s it that we have never drove out anyone from our forum (KP Slash Haven), regardless of whatever they shipped. And you don’t have to believe me if you don’t want to. Ask Zaratan, MrDrP or Drakkenfan, whoever you want, if we ever pushed them away or where hostile towards them when they came to the Slash Haven to discuss some matters with us.
Heck, you can go yourself to the Slash Haven and ask everybody what they think about K/R. You even have the Kim/Ron subforum for doing that. My best guess is that you’ll get many replies telling you that they don’t like it and/or don’t think they work together. Though I doubt anyone will claim to actually hate it.
Now, I think you got confused over this. The reason for which I said I didn’t find the scandal about D/S relevant was because when I said “the story about the relationship between KiGo Shippers and the VIPs (-Or the entire fandom-) has been messed up and misunderstood” I wasn’t referring back to that scandal, but to the entire history of the fandom. As for, from what I’ve heard, it seems that the fights regarding KiGo have been around from far before I was in the fandom.
If you want to revise and review the events that happened about the scandal that came shortly after Graduation and what role was each KiGo shipper taking in that, we can totally do that, but in another thread. This one’s just not for that.
And yeah, that quote rings all the bells it has to ring. But so what if I’d like Canon to be different than what it is? I’m not bashing the pairing with that, I’m just stating my opinion, which actually goes for much more than that. IF you want to hear it, just ask me and we can totally debate over that, but again, in another thread. I don’t want to start any questioning in this one.
Also, that quotation from (according to Slick) Swenlin hardly answered any question we had for the VIPs. I don’t even know to what question that reply was for, nor why you brought it up for.
Which brings me back to my original and only question: What point you were trying to make?
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On the last note and as a general answer, I acknowledge the argument of “Kim and Shego not being gay” too, though I guess this is just an extension of the “Not seeing it happen” too. It’s okay and heck, I don’t see them gay either, but that doesn’t stop me from believing love can flourish between these two with them loving each other not for their gender, but for the persons they are. Point taken, reply given, no harsh. Let’s move on.
Well, another long post of answers given and that’s that. Let’s see how this goes on.
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Post by yvj on Mar 27, 2008 22:33:57 GMT -5
First let me say that pointing out something is not hostility. You post something on the internet and when someone points out cases where you might be wrong that IMO is not considered malice in any place I've heard. Unfortunately it's hard to interpret tone in internet posts. But if what I said is truly considered malice to you then we might as well stop all discussion right now.
I apologize it i wasn't clear enough before. Here are my points to be clear.
1) You said
That is not exactly true. And I think you're being much too biased (pot calling kettle black?) in this regard. Which is why I mentioned Beeftoney who I've butted heads with occasionally on some issues. He has been very vocal about his disapproval with anything regarding the creators. Even to the point of stating he could do better himself. I do not believe for one second he is the only one who shares that opinion.
2) You addressed the Steve situation and so I did as well to the best of my memory. I did it because obviously there seems to be two sides to that story.
3) You stated that many kigo shippers probably lash out against canon (We don't care about canon) because they are tired of hearing others say their pairing is non canonical. I agreed that this was very possible.
HOWEVER that is not an incorrect statement because it is non canonical. There is no malice in saying that......For example saying Kigo is only or perverts is a hostile reaction, saying it's non canonical is not.
4))
My first post in this thread was to point out why people don't like Kigo. Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying here that that Kigo shippers who say they only watch the show for kigo/Shego do so because they are confronted by K/R shippers?
That doesn't make sense to me. So you might have to explain. Because I'm not not making things up, I believe Cadmus (who is not a hardcore K/R fan to my knowledge) expressed the same annoyance in another post.
Unfortunately I have seen Kigo shippers say they didn't even bother with season 4. Or they didn't bother with any episodes that didn't heavily feature Shego? Maybe it's just the kigo shippers who post outside of Slash Haven because if you go through some of the discussions FF.net you might find what I'm talking about.
5) Now I will admit I was harsh in the discussion of subtext. But one of my points of annoyance is this issue. Kigo as a fanon does not bother me, or to be specific it no longer annoys me as it once did.
But the subtext no. I might......might be able to buy that Kim would discover her sexual preferences many years later (though I still think if she were gay she wouldn't be with Shego) But I'm sorry I won't subscribe to the theory of definite subtext in canon.
6)
I was actually agreeing with you on this. And I feel that if this point was put out across more, instead of trying to shove subtext in as proof there would be less fights.
7) I may be wrong but your last post seemed to imply that allot of the fighting done by Kigo shippers is self defense. I don't find that to be true at all.
But I'm not saying that insults are not fired at Kigo fans. I know Kigo takes more heat then most.
8
Yes you expressed your opinion. And I guess I'm allowed to do so as well. That means I can reply to things I may be believe to be antagonistic or in other cases heavily biased. You and everyone else can too. Unfortunately allot of those opinions are I don't like kigo or more likely "EWWWW Kigo"
But I guess it was irrelevant to discussion at the time.
This is the situation am I going to believe you or my own experiences? You will not see me denying that some K/R shippers outright hate Kigo.
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Post by Levelord on Mar 28, 2008 14:54:09 GMT -5
My eyes hurt from all of the text....
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Post by DP on Mar 28, 2008 17:48:23 GMT -5
I have always seen Shego as someone who without care would reach into your chest an pull your heart out then show it to you before you died. Is it bad that I found this sentence to be extremely funny?
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Post by Alexlayer on Mar 29, 2008 14:17:02 GMT -5
Okay, Yvj. I understand your point and I apology if my post felt a bit hostile too (After re-reading it, I think it could have felt that way). You make very good points in your last post. Now, allow me to answer… First point (And follows with the forth). Yeah, I got to admit I’m probably being a bit too defensive on my side of the fandom. I did admit we had our flaws, though. I know what you mean by some people saying that they only watch the show for KiGo subtext or haven’t bothered with Season 4. I can’t recall who said these things among the many fans, but I’ve heard it. I don’t know what are their reasons; but heck, if that’s how they feel, I guess the best thing I can do is let them suit themselves. Anyone can decide what to watch or not watch, and what are they watching it for. In my case, I actually started to watch the show because of KiGo, but stayed with it because I liked the show itself. Now, I don’t feel like talking about someone else who isn’t here anymore, but seems like I have to. Regarding Beeftony, while I do recall him saying something on the lines of that he wouldn’t want KiGo to become Canon because he didn’t trust the creators to handle it right, I can’t remember he being so harsh about it. I’m not going your words at doubt, though. Like Ninnik said, we’re all critical consumers, and Beeftony has always been particularly critic (which actually makes him a great reviewer). If he really went to such point, then I can’t say I approve, but then again, I don’t think there’s much sense on me apologizing for him. That aside. I’m glad we can have a sort of understanding on points 3 and 6. And to further it up, I do know that saying KiGo is non-canonical is totally not offensive or insulting. The problem is when it and its fans are treated as inferior for that, or accused to be against the creators just because of shipping it. From this perspective, I do think many, if not most, of the fights involving KiGo were in self-defense. Though I reiterate, we weren’t so innocent when we got involved in those fights, either. Anyway, I’m not going to hold anything against you for not sharing my view on the possibility of subtext or things like that. Like you said, we all have our opinions and our right to express them. What’s important is that we can also let each other live with their own in peace. Oh, and regarding your last question: This is the situation am I going to believe you or my own experiences? Honestly, I don’t know. You can go and make the test or stick with what you think it’s right. It’s your decision and I’ not going to judge you anyway. Though I think you could take this as a way to approach to the other side of the Fandom just like I did with this thread. But again, just do what you feel it’s right. Glad to see we’re reaching somewhere. Peace.
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Post by ferryport1987 on Mar 30, 2008 8:23:52 GMT -5
el diablo...esta huevada ya tiene 8 páginas man in just 2 weeks...this KiGo thread turned out to be popular i think that this thread is bringing in new KiGo supporters or something...digo yo think KiGo is the biggest fanon in the KP universe :-)
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Post by Ezbok58a on Mar 30, 2008 14:29:24 GMT -5
I have never been a big fan of Kigo. But the idea of Kigo doesn't bother me really, what I don't like about it is some of the people who ship Kigo. Theres a old saying that a few bad apples spoil the bunch. And that's what's happened for me. A few Kigo shippers have come across as arrogant, and willing to bash K/R and canon just to try and prove how superior Kigo is to everything else. I've had good conversations/debates with Kigo shippers that I didn't even know were Kigo shippers till they said they were Kigo shippers. It didn't change my opinion of them, I knew they were ok people. To be honest this thread has surprised me, I fully expected 8 pages of outright arguing and bashing followed by many warnings and bannings. Instead I come across a polite discussion thats still very civil and on topic. I am very impressed.
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Post by allaine on Apr 3, 2008 14:57:50 GMT -5
*smacks forehead*
Hasn't anyone who's ever had an opinion on this topic already articulated it in one of multiple past threads?
I have this really bad feeling that ten years from now, the KP community will consist of one K/R and one Kigo fan arguing with each other. (Wait, wasn't that a Star Trek episode?)
Oy.
Sincerely, Allaine
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Post by slicknickshady on Apr 3, 2008 15:20:23 GMT -5
I fully expected 8 pages of outright arguing and bashing followed by many warnings and bannings. My main thing has always been if you want to take characters and make them do things they would never do then why not create your own characters and have them do whatever you want. I mean seriously why take two characters that TPTB have stated will never break up and that would be together forever in Kim & Ron and just break them up or make Kim gay? It just is hard for me to grasp that. They are not the same characters anymore when they are turned into something they are not. I see it as completely disrespectful to Bob, Mark, and Steves hard work. Bob and Mark have said Kim and Ron are together forever and will never break up. It baffles me why people would want to change that. Don't give me the it's FanFiction answer. Create your own characters and write a book if you want a lezbian crime fighter who hooks up with a villian.
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Post by nabusan on Apr 3, 2008 15:28:43 GMT -5
Erm, I think they like the character. They're just changing one or two aspects to her to go with their fanon views. Why create an entirely new work of fiction when you can just twist someone elses existing work to suit your needs? Baffling and hard to grasp as it might be for you, it's perfectly okay for tens of dozens of other fans and shippers of any kind of non-canon pairings.
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Post by slicknickshady on Apr 3, 2008 15:38:20 GMT -5
Why create an entirely new work of fiction when you can just twist someone elses existing work to suit your needs? Maybe because you respect the creators?
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Post by nabusan on Apr 3, 2008 15:56:33 GMT -5
I think many fanon creators still hold the greatest respect for the creators. Sure, there are the odd people who don't agree with their writing decisions - but they happen to be on both sides. You, for one, didn't find anything respectful about episodes like Homecoming Upset and Stop Team Go at first. The creators have shown no contempt to any fanon shippers at all and don't feel disrespected by their shipping, and interpretting their reluctance to answer certain shipping questions during a chat because they're aware of the agressive nature of some shippers shouldn't be construed as showing such contempt.
They were just being smart.
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Post by ArtFan88 on Apr 3, 2008 15:57:48 GMT -5
Since I can't say it again any clearer, here's what I have to say, one final time. I just have one question. Why is this even being argued over? Speaking for myself, I might not like most ships and I do support cannon, but you know what, I have no right to tell any of the shippers that what they do is wrong, and neither does anyone else. If it's what they're into, if they have fun with it, who are you to come in and chastise them for it? Just like if you're into cannon or whatever, the shippers shouldn't go around beating you over the head with their pairings. It's all about respect, people: respecting what others enjoy. The only disrespectful thing about it is taking it to the point of bickering about it and bashing. If people are having fun then there's no need for it. And besides, is that not part of being a fan anyway? To be creative with the media that you're a fan of? If everyone followed exactly, 100% what the creators put in the show, all the time, I'd say things would get pretty boring pretty fast. The fact that the fans can come up with different ships or stories or events only goes to show just how broad a range KP has for exploration, I think. And that's the fun of being a fan. Exploring and being creative. There is nothing wrong with it and like I said, no one has any right to go around and say that there is. Furthermore... I think Bob and Mark would be pleased to see just how much exploring and expirimenting the fans have done in the time KP has existed. I think it just shows how great of a show they have created; where so much freedom of exploration can happen. It keeps things fresh and fun, and for any fandom, that is important.
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Post by slicknickshady on Apr 3, 2008 16:11:47 GMT -5
I think many fanon creators still hold the greatest respect for the creators. Sure, there are the odd people who don't agree with their writing decisions - but they happen to be on both sides. You, for one, didn't find anything respectful about episodes like Homecoming Upset and Stop Team Go at first. The creators have shown no contempt to any fanon shippers at all and don't feel disrespected by their shipping, and interpretting their reluctance to answer certain shipping questions during a chat because they're aware of the agressive nature of some shippers shouldn't be construed as showing such contempt. They were just being smart. I don't think it's disrespectful by reviewing an episode though. I like gave only three bad ratings and those were for Stop Team Go, Homecoming Upset, and Grande Size Me. Everything else I gave great ratings. I mean it's not like im making this stuff up. Bob and Mark said that at the gargoyles convention that kim & ron will never break up and they will always be together. They would not say that if they did not mean it. Why not create your own characters? Thats what those k word people are doing anyway by breaking up Kim and Ron. That isnt Kim Possible. I mean Together Forever. That means anything else is not Kim Possible.
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Post by nabusan on Apr 3, 2008 16:37:59 GMT -5
Course it's not Kim Possible, that's what fanon is. As you said, it's like creating your own fan-made characters, but by drawing inspiration from the show. Just in this case, it's a lot eg. names, descriptions, locations etc ;D Canon = what Bob and Mark said at Gargoyles. Fanon = what fans make of the canon. But fanon and canon are two separate entities. At no point have 'TPTB' said they're against fanon and non-canon shipping. But they have shown their support for it in saying that the characters 'belong to the fans now' and by their continued support of RS.net, a liberal forum with a diverse range of fan opinion/ships. They could have easily gone to slashhaven, a slash forum, or ARA, a conservative canon forum. But they came here, a healthy middle ground between canon and fanon shippers.
And your dislike of those specific episodes was a lot more deep-rooted than simple reviewing purposes. I counted several threads where you were anti-Bonnie regardless of the Homecoming Upset episode showing that there was a nice side to her [near the end] and that Kim had forgiven her when the truth about Bonnie was revealed. How is it respecting a creators work when you yourself hate a character that's trying to be positively portrayed? In the same way, many Kigo shippers, much to my dismay, hate Ron. But I can't hold it against them. Like you and your hate for Bonnie, that's just their opinion. And all opinions should be respected.
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Post by dracko19 on Apr 3, 2008 16:38:10 GMT -5
I mean it's not like im making this stuff up. Bob and Mark said that at the gargoyles convention that kim & ron will never break up and they will always be together. They would not say that if they did not mean it. They also said the show now belongs to the fans and they encouraged all of the fan writers to take the show anywhere their hearts lead them. So, in a sense, you are disrespecting the creators by challenging any writer who chooses to do as the creators indicated. The creators want the fan fiction to be written. The creators want the fans to take the series in new directions (or old if they so choose). You never cease to amaze me Slick. Why are you bringing your well known opinion into this thread? We all know how you feel. Heck half the interenet and the entire KP fandom knows where you stand on this. Any further comments by you in this thread are going to be considered "provoking". You have no business being in here and I asked you to stay out once already. This is the last time I ask you nicely.
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Post by pengychan on Apr 3, 2008 16:49:19 GMT -5
Being a K/R shipper myself, I really don't get where is the problem.
Bob and Mark said that Kim and Ron will be together forever, right? Well, wonderful: as a K/R shipper, I'm happy to know that. Kim and Ron are together forever, and this is CANON.
But fanfiction/fanart/fanvideos/whatever are not canon - it's FANON. Fanon is not canon, it will never is. It just belongs to the fans, who are free to use their imagination to think how things could be different - there is a reason why in fanfictions there are things like "Alternative Universe" or "What if", after all. It doesn't mean disrespecting canon, not at all: it's just a different take on the characters. Everyone is free to ship any character with whoever he wants - if I don't like a certain ship, I just don't pay attention to it: I just live and let live.
Besides, I don't think the KP creators are somehow "offended" by it - if they were, they could have forbidden KiGo fanwork in a moment - they have the copyrights on the characters, they can do it. But they didn't - they're not so outraged, then.
Of course, I also think "why don't you make up your own characters?" everytime I read a story that goes terribly OOC (like Ron being a total bastard so that poor helpless Kim has to be saved by heroic Shego), but if I read a well-written KiGo fanfiction that keep both of them IC and gives a good explanation about how their relationship changed I have no problems reading it. And if I see a beautiful fanart with Kim and Shego together, I'll most likely appreciate the art it even though I'm a K/R shipper - I will never say "no, this is bad" only because of the pairing.
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Post by littlemissruthie on Apr 3, 2008 16:51:21 GMT -5
I don't hate it, I just got sick or hearing and seeing all over KP fan stuff!
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Post by slicknickshady on Apr 3, 2008 18:36:26 GMT -5
Bob and Mark said that Kim and Ron will be together forever, right? Well, wonderful: as a K/R shipper, I'm happy to know that. Kim and Ron are together forever, and this is CANON. Yeah. They said it at the gargoyles convention. Cloudmonet was their at the table. I said what I needed to say in this thread. I'm now done though. Honestly I am doing nothing wrong by posting in this thread again if I so choosed. It's not because you Dracko said I can't post in this thread again. It's because I said my peace.
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Post by eclogite on Apr 3, 2008 22:01:10 GMT -5
I think many fanon creators still hold the greatest respect for the creators. Sure, there are the odd people who don't agree with their writing decisions - but they happen to be on both sides. You, for one, didn't find anything respectful about episodes like Homecoming Upset and Stop Team Go at first. The creators have shown no contempt to any fanon shippers at all and don't feel disrespected by their shipping, and interpretting their reluctance to answer certain shipping questions during a chat because they're aware of the agressive nature of some shippers shouldn't be construed as showing such contempt. They were just being smart. well, they do say imitation is the highest form of flattery. Since the show is done, as the writers said, the new adventures, dimensions and explorations of the characters are in the hands of the fans. it will be interesting to see what the fan authors do with it. It will doubtless take things to new dimensions and in new directions that the original stories never envisioned. should be fun.
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