Reevaluation of K/R Feelings Season 2

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Return to Wannaweep

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« Reply #527 on Aug 3, 2005, 12:57pm »

So, Return to Wannaweep, not one of the more popular episodes, to judge from the comments I've read about it. Lake Wannaweep's mutagenic powers-- or, rather, the powers of the concentrated Grotto's magic mucka-- seem a bit different again. While Gil turns into a somewhat more buff version of the amphibious monster he was before, with a nearly inexhaustible supply of mutagenic, cabin-dissolving barf, Ron turns into an adorable muscular beaver man. At least most of the lake is detoxified. I hypothesize that the bizarre events of "Day of the Snowmen" were the last straw, and somebody did something about it over the summer. So all the camps are reopened, the Lake is renamed "Gottagrin," and let's have a look at what this episode shows about the friendship/potential relationship between Kim and Ron.

Ron's the only boy on a bus full of cheerleaders, a most enviable position I would think, but anything with the word "camp" in it has him paranoid, even with Kim sitting right next to him. Well, she's still sitting there, but Ron's now cowering under the seat.



Kim shows remarkable patience with Ron's reactions, attempting to reassure him over and over as the sitch looks worse and worse from his point of view.



We're actually going to Middleton Community College. No, we're at Lake Gottagrin. No, Lake Gottagrin is actually Lake Wannaweep, but it's been detoxified. Look at the cute little beavers.



Worst of all, Gil Moss is there, mascot of another team, the Horned Toads, and he's acting kinda creepy. But Kim has troubles of her own. Bonnie's her cabin mate, and the two are locked in a cartoon feud, worth looking at in detail because Bonnie will play a big role in the multi-episode soap opera about to begin.


It starts with Bonnie claiming the top bunk, and keeping Kim awake with her snores. Nothing intentional or malicious about snoring, but Bonnie has to point out the bags under Kim's eyes, and the feud is on!

Here's Kim, unplugging Bonnie's alarm clock to recharge the kimmunicator's battery. Note evil smile. Shego couldn't have done it any better.



Next night, Bonnie turns on a sunlamp in the middle of the night to work on her tan, and keep Kim awake.



Then, next morning, Kim uses up all the hot water, and Bonnie freezes, in a parody of Hitchcock's "Psycho."

Kim's so distracted by her feud with Bonnie that she completely disregards Ron's warnings about Gil. Never, never disregard Ron's warnings, no matter how unwarranted they seem. The paranoid has a real enemy here. When Gill rips off his horned toad costume to reveal his freakish mutant self, Kim and Ron are the first to react, while the other Middleton cheerleaders are still clapping. Don't they remember Gill? Or do they think it's just a better costume?



As soon as he starts spraying mutagenic barf, they panic. Bonnie, however, is too fixated on preventing Kim from being the hero to be afraid. "So not the time," Kim tells her, but too late, they're caught, and only Ron's still free.



Kim, trapped in mutagenic slime, expressing confidence in her Ron. When a couple of students start mutating into a duck and a rabbit, Kim decides to take action on her own and asks for Bonnie's nail file. Bonnie wants to be the hero herself, but somehow doesn't seem quite able to cut the dried slime. Reluctantly, she lets Kim free everyone, and the battle moves to clown camp, where Ron the muscular beaver man is battling Gill, and not exactly winning. Kim and Bonnie do an acrobatics act that tangles Gill in an apparently mutant-barf-proof net, and the danger's over.


Standard reward for defeating, or helping to defeat, Gill-- a huge big-eyed smile from Kim in her cheerleading dress. That's gotta be worth a lot.

And in the end, Ron tries to smooth things over between Kim and Bonnie, pointing out quite validly how their feud hampered their effectiveness. But the girls aren't buying this at all.



In "Hidden Talent," Ron was plotting with Kim to defeat Bonnie at the talent show. Here, he seems to have concluded that Bonnie isn't evil, and the feud is unproductive. Give Ron some maturity points for this, but note that Kim seems more annoyed than Bonnie.



As an aside, it's often said that Kim's and Shego's injuries toward the end of "So the Drama" are unusual, but look what Gill did to Tara and a black-haired cheerleader. I think this is Marcella with straightened hair, since she has the mole and rounded chest, as opposed to Hope, who has straight hair, no mole, and a kimlike chest. Tara got scratched, and Marcella's left arm is broken. What did Gill do, besides barf on them? It must have hit with quite a whallop!

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J2
Guest

« Reply #528 on Aug 3, 2005, 1:47pm »

Return To Wannaweep doesn't have many shippy moments. We do see smiles and the occasional arm on the shoulder thing. But overall, this episode is about the escalating feud between Kim and Bonnie.

Also we see Kim having trouble believing Ron. Obviously Ron has had trouble in the past jumping to quick conclusions. Crush, for instance, has Ron believing Drakken wants to steal Christmas. And in Car Trouble, he screams about ghost car. But Ron does get it right sometimes. There's Monkey Fist Strikes, where Ron believe Montgomery Fiske is evil. Downhill, where Ron believes in a snowbeast in the Middleton moutains. And there is Sink or Swim, where Ron believes Lake Wannaweep is cursed. It's surprising that Kim isn't willing to take the time to see what Ron is talking about. But as CM already pointed out, Kim is really involved in the feud with Bonnie. She even leaves her Kimmunicator at the cabin.

I'll also comment on the scene where Bonnie takes a shower. It's bold for the animators to show Bonnie undressing from her bathrobe. It's more surprising to see her storm out with only a towel around her. I didn't think I would ever see that in American animation.

And finally, the above pic with Tara and Marcella. I noticed that Marcella also has a bandage around her leg. She got hurt bad. This may not have come from a hit from Gill. Perhaps she hid behind a tree and Gill mucked it up causing it to fall on her; or something like that. More likely, she fell down when people panicked and was stampeded. Despite her injuries, she's still in good spirits. Unfortunately, in the war between good and evil, it's often the innocents who get hurt.

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« Reply #529 on Aug 3, 2005, 2:06pm »

Kim and Bonnie were stuck to a tree with mutagenic barf. I'm thinking maybe another blast of barf knocked Marcella against a tree, breaking her arm? Could be.

I think I've seen Wilma Flintstone or Betty Rubble wrapped in a towel. I doubt it's a first, even for Disney, but don't have (at the moment) the pictures to prove it. Of course there are scenes from Futurama where Leela and Amy (carefully positioned) are completely nude, but that's Fox.

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Forlong
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« Reply #530 on Aug 3, 2005, 2:08pm »
Kim seems more willing to believe Ron in this episode than in the past. She only says that he should actual proof. A definate foreshadowing to the events of So the Drama.

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El Bissop
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« Reply #531 on Aug 4, 2005, 12:59am »

This episode shows how Ron's "Ron-ness" is actually something people look up to, but also how that same Ron-ness can manifest as bizarre behavior that normally drives people away. When he first arrives at Cheer Camp, Ron's practically a legend (turns out his Mad Dog outfit, which not even Kim believed in, is actually all that), but in only a couple of days he manages to turn his admirers (along with practically everyone else) into rotten-fruit-tossing hecklers with his paranoid ravings about Gil.

I know Kim sometimes takes flak for her occasional short fuse when it comes to Ron (especially in Season 1), but I think we really have to give her credit for sticking by him after all these years. We've often seen how people gravitate towards Ron when he's on the upswing of his curve, but how they quickly flee when he starts with the extreme weirdness. For all of her frequent impatience and bossiness, Kim's the only person who's genuinely cared enough about Ron to stick by him through both his good moments and his bad ones. (Well, Felix and Monique also seem to like him, but a) they haven't been exposed to the sheer level of Ron-ness chaos that Kim has dealt with b) by the time he meets them, he's gotten somewhat more control over his "condition".)

When Double-L Gill makes his encore appearance, Kim definitely has more confidence in Ron's ability to save the day (she's got some small doubts, but since Ron's behavior is just so chaotic that's only natural). She seems quite proud of Ron when she arrives at Clown Camp and sees him holding his own against Gill, and even gives most of the credit for stopping Gill to Ron (even though it was she and Bonnie who delivered the coup de grace).

Ron's seems to have gotten more mature too. Instead of getting a big head like he used to, Ron gives props to Kim and admits he couldn't have done it without her (paralleling her admission that she couldn't save the world without him in ASiT). The two of them need each other to save the day, and they're finally mature enough to nix their egos and admit it.

It's also funny to note how Kim doesn't seem at all put off that Ron's turned himself into a giant beaver. Ron was initially freaked when he thought Kim was turned into a monkey, but eventually got over it, which we gave him props for. Kim, on the other hand, isn't even phased by the fact that Ron's been mutated. Then again, after getting brainwashed, brain-swapped, turned into a cyborg, getting super-powers, etc. I guess she's just used to that sort of thing. I wonder if she'd be as mellow if he got turned into a giant coachroach, though.

Finally, this episode once again shows us that, despite being "afraid of practically everything", when pushed against the wall Ron is actually quite adept at overcoming and confronting his fears. I mean, even without an overpowering fear of mutants, it takes a lot of guts to plunge headfirst into mutagenic waste in order to deliberately mutate yourself so you can fight another rampaging mutant.

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J2
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« Reply #532 on Aug 4, 2005, 2:04am »

I've thought a bit more about this episode. Let's go back to the ending where Ron puts his hands on Kim and Bonnie. (See above pic) Has Bonnie ever let Ron get this close to her? Is she so frustrated over her rivalry against Kim that she forgets about how she considers him a loser? Or is Bonnie crushing on Ron?

As we'll soon see in Ron Millionaire, it only takes some big cash to persuade Bonnie that Ron is the right man for her. She'll even forget her current crush: Brick Flagg. So does Bonnie have any real feelings for Ron? There's no real indication for that. For Bonnie, Ron is so low on the food chain that she won't even go out with him just to spite Kim. However, if old rumors about Kim and Brick were still in circulation, it would answer why Bonnie was so interested in him. The same would be true for Bonnie's crush on Hirotaka.

What I really see is Ron trying to end the feud between Kim and Bonnie. Neither one is willing to break.

A part of me wants to believe that Ron is trying to make Kim jealous by warming up to Bonnie. I don't think this is the case here. Although if he is, he's doing a better job than expected.

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Aers
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« Reply #533 on Aug 4, 2005, 4:41pm »

I think Ron tries to mend the feud between Kim and Bonnie more for trying to get something out of the entire experience rather than actually helping one or the other - after losing the "Cheer Stick"; nearly being mutated and having one of the worst times of their lives, he's desperate to find SOMETHING positive.

and fails, of course, because the girls won't go for it.

thus he declares the entire event a waste of time.

I can relate.



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« Reply #534 on Aug 5, 2005, 11:49am »

Well, Aers, I must respectfully disagree. After living through "Hidden Talent" and now this, Ron seems to be really fed up with their feud, especially since this time it affected Kim's effectiveness, whereas working together Kim and Bonnie captured Gill, using each other's current favorite cheer moves to reach the high platforms.

Ron learned their lesson, but they refused to learn anything, and he went along with this, probably because he didn't want to be locked into disagreement with Kim.

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Aers
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« Reply #535 on Aug 5, 2005, 2:00pm »

hmm... respectfully disagreeing again, wasn't it one of the deleted scenes in StD where Ron suggests "taking Bonnie out"? Doesn't sound like he's really done with the feud...



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« Reply #536 on Aug 5, 2005, 7:05pm »

Has anyone else noticed that Bonnie hadnt been throwing rotten food at Ron and calling him a loser?

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GnuHopper
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« Reply #537 on Aug 5, 2005, 10:02pm »

I really have little to say about "Return to Wannaweep", one of my least favorite eps of season two. While a number of Kim Possible episodes are direct sequels to earlier stories, usually they take the earlier plot in new directions ("Exchange"/"Gorilla Fist") or expand on the character relationships developed in the earlier episode ("Motor Ed"/"Steal Wheels").

But "Wannaweep" is simply an inferior retread of the same ground (literally) as "Sink or Swim" -- probably the first season's single finest episode. The same villain, same summer camp flashbacks, same "Paranoid Ron annoys everyone" plot. And where it tries to be different, it falls short of the original: in "SoS" Ron defeated Gill with his brains, here he has to...become a giant beaver? Not to mention how much the noctural atmosphere of the deserted camp is missed this time. Only the Kim/Bonnie feud makes the ep stand out at all.

I'm ready for "Blush" whenever the rest of you are. It may be a bit painful for K/R fans, but at least it gets the narrative ball rolling again.

GH

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Blush

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« Reply #538 on Aug 6, 2005, 4:44pm »

Blush contains one of the hardest plot elements used in fiction: multiple story lines.

1st story line: Drakken. He's getting sick and tired of Kim stopping his plans. He finally wises up and tries to destroy her.

2nd story line: Kim. She's fretting about Josh, who seems equally nervous.

3rd story line: Ron. He's trying to save Kim. All together now: Awwwwww.

The episode's second story line suffers greatly, thanks to Kim's stupidity. It is only saved by the stirring performance by Josh Mankey and the tweebs.

Okay, Kim seems too infatuated with Josh to even see Ron as more than a friend. I suspect that Dr. J. T. P. had a "talk" with Mankey about his rules that Josh will have to fallow while dating Kim (and the consequences if he fails to do so). This makes Josh a little nervous about asking Kim out.

Note that Kim is trying to get Josh to ask her out. So that means that she wants a man that can take charge. But, when she's in danger, Ron takes over the team and calls the shots (did you actually catch that?). She seems to have a mixture of shock and aggravation at this. So it's okay in Josh but not in Ron?

Another HUGE hint is the difference between how Ron and Josh react to Kim falling.

Josh: Calls Kim's name once and takes three steps in the direction she's running.

Ron: Calls Kim's name several times and pursues her into Club Banana until he finds her.

How much more obvious could it be, Possible!?!

And, to top it off, Ron risks his life to save Kim...while she risks her life to go out with some pretty-boy! Kim could have told Josh that tomorrow would have been a better time to go out (it was, after all, a last second thing).

I'm sure someone will already do this but...could someone put up a screen shot of the smile Ron gives Kim at the end of the episode?...

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« Reply #539 on Aug 6, 2005, 6:08pm »
Yes, doing Blush properly will require major screencapping, which I probably can't get together before tomorrow morning, so I may delay my own commentary for that.

Josh: Calls Kim's name once and takes three steps in the direction she's running.

Ron: Calls Kim's name several times and pursues her into Club Banana until he finds her.
How much more obvious could it be, Possible!?!

but I'll note that observation is excellent.

-----
And back for a moment to Aers and Wannaweep:

hmm... respectfully disagreeing again, wasn't it one of the deleted scenes in StD where Ron suggests "taking Bonnie out"? Doesn't sound like he's really done with the feud...

Perhaps not by "So the Drama," but that is much later, and possibly this scene was deleted from the story because it didn't feel right, somehow. I think at the time of Wannaweep, at least, Ron really wanted the feud over. Hardly matters what he wanted, though, cause he failed completely.
« Last Edit: Aug 6, 2005, 6:14pm by cloudmonet »

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J2
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« Reply #540 on Aug 7, 2005, 4:54am »

So here we are on Blush, which sounds a lot like Crush, another Josh Mankey episode. Here we see Kim and Josh on a real date together. And more importantly, we see the beginning effects on Ron as Kim crushes on someone else. Ron remains quiet, but can't hide that he's annoyed by it. This is especially true for the Bueno Nacho scene.

KIM: I'm telling you, I was this close to Josh Mankey asking me out.

Here Kim is trying to get Ron to step up by telling him how much she wants to go out with someone else. Kim tried this same maneuver in Crush to get Ron to ask her to the Spirit Dance. Ron pulls out nacho.

RON: You can't beat me at my own game, Rufus. I haven't caused a nachovolanche since '97. Franky, I find the whole dating thing to be overrated. Who would subject themselves to that?

Now Ron is defending himself for not asking Kim out. He's not ready for that next step. It makes sense after his relationship with Zita ended with him never seeing her again.

KIM: Those of us who can actually get dates.

Translation: I want a real date, Ron! Please ask me out. I'll go out with you.

KIM: If the bell to Latin had rung like five milliseconds later . . .

RON: Latin? So that's where you've been slinking off to after chemistry. (Speaks Latin)

Here's where we see Ron get upset about Josh. Is he jealous? Yes.

KIM: He was going to ask me. I could see it in his eyes.

Ron loses at nachovolanche. He is so enthralled with Kim dating Josh that he loses (first time in five years) and doesn't notice.

RON: So he takes you to dinner. You two see a movie. Big tap dancing whoop! We do that stuff together all the time.

Translation: You and I date as a couple all the time!

KIM: This is different, Ron. We're talking about a real date with Josh Mankey. I want it to be perfect.

Again, Kim affirms to Ron that if he won't take her out for a night of romance, then she'll find someone who will.

RON: Have you ever noticed that Mankey is but one vowel away from monkey?

The rest of the conversation has Ron trying to convince Kim that she doesn't need to be with Josh based on his childhood fear of monkeys. Ron fails to convince Kim that dating Josh isn't good. And Kim fails to convince Ron to ask her out. Despite this stalemate, they go to the mall together. Watch carefully as they walk past Drakken and Shego hiding in the bushes. Big bright smiles on both of them. Even though they're not a true couple yet, they enjoy being around each other enough to where it's like a real date.

Later, Ron has to go on a mission to save Kim. He will brave the jungles of the Amazon, rapids, waterfalls, wild creatures, and falling off a cliff. Like A Very Possible Christmas in which Kim is willing to go to the ends of the earth for Ron, Ron is willing to go to the ends of the earth for Kim. He suddenly transforms into a confident, take-charge kind of guy that Kim wants him to be. Ron leaves too quickly for Kim to notice. Kim can only think that she's grounded because Ron and Wade have something she can't do: take an embarrassing sitch. Next we have where Ron comes into Kim's room and picks up the telephone to see the caller ID. Ron is on there numerous times showing how much Kim and Ron talk to each other. But when Ron sees Josh's name, the jealousy he feels is obvious. "Monkey" he says with bitterness. Ron knows that Kim is out with Josh. Ron blames him for endangering her life. But he's also spiteful for Kim risking her life to see Josh. Finally, we see Ron save Kim. He does so at a distance so Kim can enjoy her date. Ron knew it was almost over for the night, and didn't want to interfere. Besides, that might make him look a jealous boyfriend. Ron doesn't like to think himself that way yet. The nervous smile he has shows that he's not comfortable with Kim being with Josh. But he's putting up a brave front for her anyways.

More shippiness may come from what we didn't see. I could see Kim and Ron having a heated arguement over Kim's immaturity and dating Josh vs. her need to protect herself when her life is in danger. Besides, after what he went through to get the flower, the least she could have done was stay in her room for a few hours. Despite this, Ron doesn't consider Josh an enemy, a rival, or a threat. In time, Kim would realize that Josh was a temporary fling. They went out a few times, had some laughs, but couldn't make things click the right way. The next time we see Josh, it appears that he and Kim are drifting apart. Ron's close relationship to Kim may have been part of that factor. We don't know for sure.

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #541 on Aug 7, 2005, 6:57pm »

At first glance and out of context, "Blush" is a sweet little date story. The boy Kim's crushing on, Josh, finally asks her out (at the worst possible time); her enemy, Drakken, and her little brothers, the tweebs, do everything possible to spoil her date; her best friend, Ron, goes to the Amazon to get the antidote for what ails her, and despite it all, she gets a goodnight kiss from her heartthrob.

Oh, but it's so much more complex than that. I'm going to try to get into it without making a two-page post with 40 pictures, but we'll see how it goes. For those of you on the villains side, you might see "Blush" as relevant to Drakken and Shego's relationship, but I'll say no more about this here.

I'll start with the usual look at Kim and Ron together. Here they are on their way to Latin class. Remember the unaltered part of "A Sitch in Time"-- they've got all their classes together this semester.


But something looks different. The whole body language thing I've been noticing for some time now isn't here. Kim's pulled back from Ron. Her mind's on something else, someone else, Josh Mankey.


Miss Nervous meets Mr. Cool. Just trying to attract your attention without making it obvious I'm trying to attract your attention and failing miserably but now that I've got your attention... or something like that! Kim's such a ditz around Josh, and I don't think he wants her to be a ditz.


I've posted something like this pose before-- Kim showing her prom dress to Erik. Why does Kim like guys who make her feel like this? I guess it's the excitement.


Josh, of course, seems unfazed by almost anything Kim does.


We've seen the puppy dog pout. How 'bout the puppy dog eyes?


No reaction. If she did this to me, I'd grab and kiss her. Come on, Josh, what's up with you, anyway?

So in light of all the above, I'm forced to file J2's theory that Kim's discussion of this experience with Ron in Bueno Nacho is a ploy to get Ron to ask her out on a date as implausible. Her head is clearly all Josh Josh Josh at the moment. Why?

We haven't seen Josh at all since Crush and October 31. I'm kind of inclined to believe his presence in Kim's life is just as we see it, intermittant. But, for the moment, Josh seems sort of interested in Kim, and she can't think of anything else.


Ron's annoyed about it, clearly. He may be jealous. He may not like to see Kim being silly and irrational. "Dating's overrated" may be an attitude spawned by his breakup with Zita, or it may refer to how it's making Kim act right now.

Ron may not be averse to talking about his feelings, but he doesn't always choose the most effective expression. The "Mankey/Monkey" rant just annoys Kim, till the mysterious pink mist distracts her.


Then we see her walking toward the mall with Ron, looking for all the world like the couple we're used to seeing.

But there's Josh again at the mall. Who's he hanging out with? The tall girl with short hair and freckles, a dark-haired girl, and he's talking to Bonnie Rockwaller!

The thought that Josh might like Bonnie doesn't occur to Kim, and, wondering why not, I conclude that maybe Kim knows that Bonnie and Josh are just friends.

So, uncertain how to make her entrance, Kim stumbles down the stairs and lands at Bonnie's feet, after ripping Josh's shirt.

It was pointed out above how much more concerned Ron was about Kim's fall than Josh, and I agreed with this, but looking at the event in more detail, I can discern some possible reasons for this besides the supposition that Ron likes her more than Josh does (though I agree that he does). Ron was at the top of the stairs and saw the whole fall. Josh had his back to Kim and didn't. Bonnie did see the whole thing and reacts with a cruel smile no one else can see but Kim.

Kim gets up, panics, and runs away. Josh is kind of used to her reacting this way around him. Any fall you can run away from can't be that bad, can it?

Notice a couple of things about Ron's appearance. He doesn't come into the scene at the bottom of the stairs, that is, he doesn't put himself between Kim and Josh. And he does rush to her side as soon as she's somewhere else.


So Wade's defined the sitch, and it's quest time. Would it have worked out better if Kim had come along? I could certainly argue that Kim would be much less easily embarrassed on a mission to the Amazon than on a date with Josh! On the other hand, Drakken would have followed Kim wherever she went, trying to embarrass her, and possibly guessing what they were up to. So I'm not sure.

But Josh gets through to Kim, and rather unexpectedly asks her if she'd like to hang out with him. A rather casual way of asking for a date, but maybe how it's done now. I wouldn't know.

So here's a boy Kim says she likes, and they're going out together. The scientist in me wonders how much this will look or not look like Kim and Ron together. Unfortunately, Drakken, Shego, the embarrassment ninjas, and the tweebs are so disruptive, that Kim is on guard against new sources of embarrassment all the time, and can't enjoy her date at all. But here's a few undisturbed moments:





They look a bit less couple-like than Kim and Ron would look in comparable scenes. But the interruptions get harder and harder to take, and when Kim's hands go invisible in response to mud splatter, she cries out to Ron, wherever he is. Could season one Kim ever have imagined she'd someday be in this fix?




Here's Kim, invisible hands in her pockets, and Josh, looking at the mural he designed and helped paint. If my art were on the wall of a building, I'd show it to any date I was trying to impress.


But now, thanks to the tweebs, events take an even more bizarre turn as a home movie of toddler Kim taking a bath is projected on the wall. Josh has been criticised for watching this, but, well, what do you do if you're walking through the park with your date and suddenly this appears? Kim could have told Josh, "Don't look, somebody's trying to ruin our date," but she doesn't.

The tweebs, who we hope don't realize the harmful effects of embarrassing Kim, are just joining what must seem like a game to them, with more devastating effect than anything that's already happened. Kim and the tweebs are thoroughly familiar with embarrassment ninjas. I wonder what they're useful for in the absence of aurora orchid serum.

But just in time, Ron's there with the orchid to save the day, and he does it unobtrusively, without Kim's date even knowing. But Kim knows, and look at her looking past Josh at Ron. She so appreciates not only what he's done, but how he did it.




That's the last we see of Ron this time. On to the infamous goodnight kiss, not much more than a peck, really.

It's not real easy to kiss someone without holding on somewhere. It's actually a good way to get painfully bumped, especially if the kiss is unexpected. Unexpected, maybe, but not unwanted. Kim makes that clear.



So as Josh walks away, what is he thinking? "You know what this date was?" he asks, and Kim replies, "perfect," cutting off whatever he was going to say. Somehow I suspect he was going to say something else.

I'm going to argue, based on what happens in the next two episodes, that this is not only Kim's first date with Josh, but quite probably her last. The experience was just a bit too out there for Mr. Mankey, I'm betting. This would mean her "Emotion Sickness" remark involved a bit of face-saving (totally in character for Kim).

« Last Edit: Aug 7, 2005, 7:05pm by cloudmonet »

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GnuHopper
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« Reply #542 on Aug 7, 2005, 8:57pm »

Why does Kim's relationship with Josh fail? "Blush" and to a lesser degree the upcoming "Full Monkey" make it clear, at least to me. In "Blush" to achieve her "perfect date" Kim has to hide the fact she's fading from existence, being pusued by supervillains and fighting off embarrasment ninjas. In "Full Monkey" (if you don't mind me jumping ahead a little) she hides the fact that a cursed amulet is monkey-fying her. In other words, Kim feels the need to constantly hide that part of her life from him, the part where she's NOT "your basic average girl" -- the part she totally shares with Ron but apparently feels Josh can't handle. And really, even if this date was "perfect", how long can Kim stand to deny such a large part of who she is?

As I've argued elsewhere, Josh represents Kim's attempt to live a ordinary teenaged existence with a normal boyfriend. But in the final analysis, and despite what the theme song tells us, Kim is anything but average -- she's extraordinary. And in the end she simply can't be satisfied with an ordinary boyfriend and an ordinary high school romance. She needs someone she can share her wild, adventurous existence with openly. Someone, for instance, who would quest through the Amazon Jungle, face wild animals and untold dangers, risk his life time and again for a friend. Would Josh do that? More importantly, *could* Josh do that?

Y'know, if you watch "Smallville" there's a reason Clark will eventually end up with Lois rather than Lana. For all his youthful obsession over Lana Lang, she's too much the hothouse flower, too fragile and timid to handle Clark's other life. OTOH Lois may be pushy, brash and somewhat insensitive, but she has the strength and self-confidence necessary for someone who would love a Superman. The same holds true for "Kim Possible" -- the guy who ends up with her is going to need a thicker skin than Josh apparently possesses. And Ron, no matter how manic he might seem at times, has shown the ability to handle just about anything, including a certain redhead.

GH

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jarmitc2032
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« Reply #543 on Aug 7, 2005, 9:53pm »

I think Kim and Josh would of worked out if she was willing to tell the truth to him. If Josh really liked Kim, he would of understud, but no she had to lie to him. What a way to start a first date.
IP: Logged

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Potential Boy
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« Reply #544 on Aug 7, 2005, 10:13pm »

Maybe that would have been too much info for a first date...maybe a second date. You know, ease him into to the idea that she was something more of a pretty face that stuttered at the very sight of him. But still, good point. She just plays her self as completly normal, not even showing the same amout of honesty she did for Ron's interview in "All the news", even when she knew that would be published and distributed.

Still, one of the most notable things about Josh was his personality or, rather lack of it. Josh overal comes across as a very boaring character with very little noticable chemistry. True they had a good time, the movie, the food, the walk in the park.

But in earlier episodes even with Ron, Kim seems to be having more fun in doing those stuff.

Maybe being around Ron, and his quirky, loud and unique personality may have been one of the deciding factors that led her to losing intrest in Josh...later on
« Last Edit: Aug 7, 2005, 10:18pm by Potential Boy »

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jarmitc2032
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« Reply #545 on Aug 7, 2005, 10:19pm »

Kim Possible is on the TV all the time. Josh knows who Kim is. How can he not.

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J2
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« Reply #546 on Aug 8, 2005, 2:33am »

I'll concede to Cloudmonet's point that Kim is crushing on Josh more than I previously thought. However, I still believe that Kim is hoping that Ron will step to romance her.

It seems to me that Kim wants more than a guy who takes her to dinner and a movie. She wants somebody to put his arm around her and ask to hold her hand. Ron is not yet that guy. So she rekindles her crush on Josh Mankey hoping for what every average girl wants: a perfect date.

Perhaps the idea occurs to Kim after a night of villians and embarrassment ninjas that she's not an average girl at all. Ron is not the average guy. But Josh is an average guy who doesn't need the complications of her life to fall into his. And I think Josh understands this as well.

Or another scenario: Josh seems to be fairly popular with the ladies. Perhaps Kim felt too much jealousy when seeing Josh with anyone else; even if they were just talking. This is a more rare event for Ron, and one that Kim can handle better.

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James
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« Reply #547 on Aug 8, 2005, 3:33am »


Guys:

How many times did Mankey actually appear in the series? Not mentioned, but actually show up. About five, six?

I have a few thoughts on this post, but I'm going to wait to clarify them a bit

Sincerely,

JThree
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James
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« Reply #548 on Aug 8, 2005, 5:55am »


Guys:

A few more things:

I do think we have to be careful about our opinions on Josh Mankey. I really don't think he's such a bad character, but the fact we want Kim to be with Ron so much it colors our judgement of him.

Really, I don't think he's that bad a person from what we've seen of him, and I really don't think he's that shallow a character. Save that for Eric.

I think "Crush" is an episode where the KP creators and writers, were making their final evaluations on how to end the series. And after that sweet episode ending kiss in this tale, they decided how to end it involving Ron.

It might have even been debated on how to use Josh in the triangle between Kim and Ron before deciding to go with Eric as the evil creation of Drakken. Think of it, for a moment if they had decided to use Josh in a similar fashion would have pushed incredulity just a bit too tad (and that's something from the "Rewriting History" people).

Again, I do think this episode was a testing the waters situation for the writers.

By the way, congrats to CM for the observation on Kim always clutching her shoulders the way she does in certain situations (ala STD). It's almost like she feels she's slightly undressed all of a sudden-she isnt', but seems very self-conscious.

Again, I don't think Josh is such a bad person, But Ron is BETTER.

Don't want any bad K/R press.

Sincerely,

JThree
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Aers
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« Reply #549 on Aug 8, 2005, 8:42am »

so true - even KIM says that she doesn't hate Josh later on in the series, and explains that they just "grew apart" - so I fail to see the reason for all the Josh-bashing... believe me, if Kim were THAT upset she'd have torn a few strips off of the old boy herself!

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J2
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« Reply #550 on Aug 8, 2005, 10:28am »

I'm sure we'll all remember a thread two or three weeks ago. "Josh's actions in Blush." The idea I got from that thread was that 1) Josh is an okay guy. 2) Ron does not hate Josh Mankey or consider him a rival 3) the kiss at the end was a bit forward, but Kim didn't mind. 4) The kiss was Josh's way of saying, "goodbye." Kim's actions in Blush was too wierd for him, and it was the beginning of the end of their brief relationship.

And if you haven't read it yet, do so. It was one of the best threads on the boards.

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[cloudmonet]

cloudmonet
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« Reply #551 on Aug 8, 2005, 12:46pm »

The irony of the whole sitch, which I think you're missing here, is that if you look back to "Crush," Kim being Kim Possible is one of the things that attracts Josh to her. In this earlier episode he brings up her rescue of an ambassador. He wants her to be "a strong, independant woman" (to quote Monique), but when Kim's around Josh, she's so the opposite.

Why exactly she responds to him this way is obscure (maybe his looks, his "cool" manner), but clearly she likes the feeling and confuses it with love. In short, the giddy girlish responses which make Kim think she's in love with Josh actually put him off. He wants Kim the amazon commando but gets Kim the giggling cheerleader. Under these circumstances, Kim and Josh as a couple are doomed.

Ron, I notice, is usually also more comfortable with the amazon commando, which helps explain his reactions to Kim in "Emotion Sickness."

Only when Kim is finally able to fuse these divergent aspects of her personality together, in the "out there, in here" scene of "So the Drama," is she actually able to find real love. And fusing the girl and the commando means this love can only be one person, the person who's always there for her.


In this picture of Kim looking over Josh's shoulder at Ron, I see the beginning of this recognition. Eventually she'll realize that this is really love.

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Rhonda
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« Reply #552 on Aug 8, 2005, 1:32pm »

I noticed the look of pure anger, something...on Ron's face when he saw Mankey's name in the caller ID list.... And when he went through the Amazon to get the flower for Kim, I guess it seemed so natural for him to do that for her! Didn't anyone think it was kinda the obvious?

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ninjanaco
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« Reply #553 on Aug 8, 2005, 1:50pm »

Aug 8, 2005, 12:46pm, cloudmonet wrote:

Only when Kim is finally able to fuse these divergent aspects of her personality together, in the "out there, in here" scene of "So the Drama," is she actually able to find real love. And fusing the girl and the commando means this love can only be one person, the person who's always there for her.

www.carlmillerpoems.com/kimages/b125.1kim.jpg
In this picture of Kim looking over Josh's shoulder at Ron, I see the beginning of this recognition. Eventually she'll realize that this is really love.

Interesting thoughts... I've had some on a similar (though different) vein.

One of the aspects that anyone desiring a romantic relationship with Kim or Ron is the "commando" aspect of their lives, that their SO will, on a regular basis, have to go to exotic locales and save the world from supervillians, death rays, monkey ninjas, and the like. Both "Crush" and "Blush" seem to have "happy" endings on the surface level; but looking beneath the surface, there's something wrong. Let's look at the end of "Crush." Kim's finally asked Josh to the dance, and we see them there, having a good time. Then, the Kimmunicator beeps, and Kims turns it off. Why was it beeping? Probably Wade warning Kim of a new "sitch" that may or may not involve some madman threatening the free world again. By having Kim turning the Kimmunicator off, Bob and Mark (IMHO) are saying that there's something wrong with this relationship, that Kim+Josh is not meant to be.

Now look at "Blush." Here again, we see Kim's work intruding on her romantic life. Here, however, she tries to keep the two apart, attempting to hide her vortex belly and fighting embarrasment ninjas while keeping this all from Josh. I haven't seen the ep in a while, but while Josh is too polite to express any disgust or "whoah that's weird"-ness to Kim, he probably thinks that Kim, who he probably thinks is a nice girl in and of herself, has a life too strange for him to be a part of.

In short, Josh, or Kim and Josh together, fail(s) the "Commando test." They can't manage to deal with Kim's heroic side of life as a couple. Fortunately, the man Kim ends up with, a man who can deal with her heroic "commando" life is the one who accompanies her on her "commando" deeds and heroics, is her best friend and partner, Ron Stoppable.

[I could talk about the "commando test" as it were, and Eric, but I'll wait until we get to season 3 and "So the Drama". )

Oh, and if you're writing a K+R fanfic with Josh in it, remember you don't need to make Josh into an evil villian or a ladies' man in order to highlight Kim and Ron - Bob and Mark wrote Josh to be the placid, equitable boy that he is, and they planned on Kim and Ron getting together from the start.

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Carbon
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« Reply #554 on Aug 8, 2005, 2:51pm »

IMO, I think Kim's too infatuated with Josh in this episode to be thinking about Ron, even on a subconsious level.

Here we see Ron run off almost cheerfully, risking his life for Kim's, and Kim goes out on a date with her crush.

[image lost]

I guess you can't blame her really, Ron hasn't made an 'official' "move" up to this point. And you certainly can't blame Josh, I mean what would you do in his shoes. But I can't help but feel sorry for Ron. he gets back with the plant just in time, and all he gets is a smile over his rival's (in the sense that he's dating Kim) shoulder, then Kim and Josh apparently walk off, leaving Ron there in the park.

I wonder what Ron's thoughts here are:

"She'll never love me, will she Rufus?"

[image lost]

but even Rufus dosent' pick up on his heart breaking here.

as for the smile Kim gives Ron being similar to the one she gives Josh when she's hoping he'll ask her on a date, I just don't know. possibly similar, but the smile she gives Ron, minus the eye effect, seems to be a much more knowing smile- She's seamlessly shifted into the "take Ron for granted" mode there, where when she smiles at Josh she's almost giddy.

Just my opinion though

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[cloudmonet]

Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) page 38
Cached by Google on Aug 13, 2005 08:36:08 GMT.
(Read 14,138 times)

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Rhonda
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« Reply #555 on Aug 8, 2005, 3:01pm »
Oh ouch that made we wanna cry..

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KR FOREVER
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« Reply #556 on Aug 8, 2005, 7:36pm »

What I think he is thinking is:
"I don't really like her being with Josh but at least she's happy! thats all that counts."
But he doesn't even know he loves her untill So The Drama. oh well.

Ron has always put Kim's needs in front of his needs! AWWWW!!

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Shakermaker
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« Reply #557 on Aug 8, 2005, 11:47pm »

OK throwing my 2 cents in here. I really think the only purpose for the whole josh thing is so Kim would have someone to date before Ron (the same it true with Zita). One of the reasons that high school relationships are so rocky (aside from immaturity) is lack of experience. You learn quite a bit from failed relationships and you become more appreciative of the good ones. Not that the people in those relationships are bad, but there just not right for each other. It all helps you understand who you are and what you are looking for much more. This whole thing kinda remind me of and interview with J K Rowling when she said that she didn't want Ginny to be the first girl Harry ever kissed. Cho Chang served in this aspect, as I think Josh did for KP (yes I know she already kissed other boys before this, but this seems to be her first "relationship").

The whole Josh thing will just make Kim appreciate Ron that much more.
….feel free to disagree

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Carbon
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« Reply #558 on Aug 9, 2005, 12:25am »

wether he was willing to admit it to the mirror or to Rufus, putting Kim before him like that was an act of love. IMO.

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jarmitc2032
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« Reply #559 on Aug 9, 2005, 12:35am »

I agree with you

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KR FOREVER
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« Reply #560 on Aug 9, 2005, 12:38am »

same here!

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eowyn
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« Reply #561 on Aug 9, 2005, 1:55am »

Aug 8, 2005, 7:36pm, KR FOREVER wrote:

What I think he is thinking is:
"I don't really like her being with Josh but at least she's happy! thats all that counts."
But he doesn't even know he loves her untill So The Drama. oh well.

Ron has always put Kim's needs in front of his needs! AWWWW!!

Couldn't disagree more. That's not a happy look, that's Ron trying to put a smile on a heartbreaking situation and it always hurts me just to see it.

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #562 on Aug 9, 2005, 1:45pm »


Just how deep an analysis can this moment support? Not sure, but I'm willing to have another go.

Ron's clearly going through a tangle of emotions here. Perhaps something he says to Fukushima two episodes later can illuminate this a little: "When it comes to saving the beautiful girl and winning her affection, that's my honor." Maybe this scene has some influence on that. Ron's just saved the beautiful girl, but far from winning her affection, he finds her on a date with Josh!

Or did he win her affection? Kim has to totally appreciate the discreet way he got the pollen to her. He's the only person on the scene who hasn't done anything to ruin her date with Josh.


There's way more to this look than taking Ron for granted. Kim appreciates what Ron's done and how he did it. Is it love? Considering Kim's duality, yes and no. It's love from hero Kim. Cheerleader Kim, who usually dominates when love comes up, is quiet for the moment. The irony is, it's hero Kim who both boys want to date-- but cheerleader Kim gets in the way.

Kim thinks her adventures are just too weird or dangerous for most boys-- remember Brick in All the News?-- but Brick wasn't a boy who really liked her, he was just responding to her alleged remark in the school paper. What she doesn't consider is that most boys who are attracted to her will know that she's Kim Possible, and expect a strong independent girl who'll be straight with them. Which, of course, she isn't.

It's sad, but I think Kim and Ron were too far away from each other for Ron to see the love and appreciation in Kim's eyes, or Kim to see the pain in Ron's smile.

I'm not sure what would have happened if Kim and Ron had had an open and honest talk about the events of "Blush," but, given what happens next, I don't think they did.
« Last Edit: Aug 9, 2005, 1:53pm by cloudmonet »

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[cloudmonet]

Rhonda
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« Reply #563 on Aug 9, 2005, 2:45pm »

And I'm thinking that when Ron saw them on a date, he felt that Kim should have shown him more affection, but he probably didn't read the look on her face right. I saw it as one of those deep loving looks, maybe Ron saw it as 'just a smile for my best friend' and maybe Kim saw his look as 'a cheesy smile to my bud' instead of seeing that he was trying to hide the fact that his feelings were somewhat hurt.

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KR FOREVER
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« Reply #564 on Aug 9, 2005, 8:52pm »
that's a good point. I kinda does seem that way dosn't it?

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Rhonda
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« Reply #565 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:02pm »
Totally. The hurt yet covering up look could make me tear up........

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #566 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:08pm »
That whole episode I was just growling at Josh. Good thing I had already seen STD, so I was also relieved at the same time to know the good, loyal guy gets the girl.

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[cloudmonet]

The Full Monkey

cloudmonet
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« Reply #567 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:12pm »

On to "The Full Monkey," an episode open to some variant interpretation, perhaps, but for me the moment Ron reveals the depth of his love for Kim. Unfortunately, he doesn't exactly reveal this to Kim, though at the time this is what he thinks. Let's have a close look.

Following Kim's "perfect" (her word, not mine) date with Josh, she's in her room, all concerned about school picture day. She's trying to pick out the perfect outfit, and asking Ron's opinion.



So is this just Ron the good friend? Did the date come and go as if it never happened and Ron's something approaching boyfriend? It's complicated, as it will remain for the rest of the saga.

Kim's looking at old school pictures with Ron and her mom, who's just walked into the room with an unwanted gift from Nana. Ron and Mom are laughing together, and Kim's getting progressively more annoyed. Enter Wade, via the Kimmunicator. Monkey Fist's in China.

Ron throws a fit, more for comic effect than anything else, and they're off to China, with a ride from Professor Acari, who's developing snack food made from bugs, while Ron's munching on a package of spiced grasshopper. Hurl factor passes critical. Kim's words of wisdom? Look before you eat!


But hey, look, Ron's doing pretty well against the monkey ninjas. Yeah, he still has monkey issues, but he can deal with them. Kim and Ron are both fighting pretty well, but then there's an accident. Ron's spear cuts Kim's grappling hook line, and her swing doesn't exactly work out right, and she ends up with the amulet Monkey Fist is trying to steal around her neck. A beam of light comes through the skylight-- moonlight I guess, because it's night, though it is yellowish. An eclipse perhaps? Anyway, now Kim is saturated with an overdose of monkey power, and the amulet melts into a tattoo on her neck.

Back in Middleton, it's still picture day. That's a fast jet and a quick adventure for you! It's been enough to make Kim tired, and she's not performing well at the practice for the cheer-off. For the first time (I think) Kim's mistake makes Bonnie fall.


It's interesting how the cheerleaders react. Bonnie's angry, of course. Hope and Marcella seem unfazed. Liz and Crystal look surprised. Tara's rolling her eyes, I'm guessing because Bonnie and Kim are at it again.

Then Bonnie notices Kim's eyebrow growing out of control, and the picture day panic begins. Kim and Ron go to her locker to discuss the sitch with Wade, who reveals that Kim's turning into a monkey! And who should show up but Josh, just as Kim's hands and feet go big and hairy?


Have we ever seen Josh seek out Kim before? Talk about Murphy's law! Kim panics, just as she did during the date while becoming invisible, and tries to hide her condition behind Ron, and in a book. Josh, for whatever reason, is being persistant.


What does this mean, exactly? It's not that important for this episode, but in the unfolding saga, it's major. Clearly Ron in this episode thinks that Josh and Kim are an item. Kim totally doesn't want Josh to see her this way. She probably doesn't want anyone to see her this way. Even Ron isn't reacting that well.

But what about Josh? I've argued that maybe "Blush" is his only date with Kim, but where's his head at here? Is he seeking Kim out because they have something going? Maybe. Is he being persistant because he thinks he has a right to know what's going on? Maybe. He's not letting Kim off the hook. Kim needs to study, by reading a dictionary? "I'll wait for the movie," Josh wisecracks. Kim puts Ron (and the dictionary) between herself and Josh, but now Ron steps up and tries to make him go away, not to get rid of a rival, but because Kim wants this.

Possibly this moment was the last straw for Josh. I don't know for sure.

What happens next is a comedy of errors. Kim ducks outside to hide from Mr. Barkin, who's insisting Kim get her picture taken no matter what. Monkey Fist and his ninjas manage to surprise and kidnap her. One of the ninjas, Chippy, apparently likes the Nana dress and changes into it, removing her monkey ninja clothes.

There's nothing to indicate Chippy's sex, but I'm presuming she's female, since she flashes Ron a few times while monkey tumbling, and I'm crediting Ron with some intelligence here, though, not to put too fine a point on it, I'd think the absence of underpants would make him wonder.

*Ahem* Okay, don't blame me. I didn't draw it.

Chippy's monkey curiosity exactly mimics what Kim might do if she really were changed into a monkey who's unable to talk. Ron struggles with her to pluck a hair sample for Wade, and then makes a decision about his friendship with Kim. Even if she's a monkey forever, their friendship won't change. So Chippy poses for a school picture, and then Ron and Chippy meet Josh and Bonnie in the hall.



You may remember me hypothesizing that Kim knows Josh and Bonnie are "just friends." I based this on Kim's reaction (or lack) to seeing them together "Blush" and Ron's remarks about who Josh rejected way back in "Crush." Ron clearly thinks Bonnie's putting the moves on Josh, and looking at this picture, I'm inclined to agree.

Ron first tries to make Chippy (who he thinks is Kim) not look, to avoid heartache and jealousy, but when she does look, Ron chides Josh for even considering Bonnie while he has Kim's heart.



"Are you trying to set me up with a monkey?" Josh asks.

I believe Ron thinks Josh knows about the transformation, since he was at the locker and saw the monkey hands holding the dictionary. Who knows what Josh actually noticed, or what he thought was going on?

Bonnie, of course, doesn't know anything, and stalks off to class. "Total rudeness! We were dishing!" she says. I wonder just what Josh and Bonnie were "dishing." I'd like to think Josh wasn't talking to Bonnie about Kim's perplexing behavior, in "Blush" and with the dictionary, but it's possible.

Does Ron really expect Josh to be as understanding about Kim's condition as he is. In Ron's eyes, Josh is Kim's boyfriend, and he ought to still find her attractive. So Ron goes on a long rant about what a perfect friend and beautiful person Kim is, while holding hands with a monkey ninja in a Nana dress. I think he emphasizes "friend" here, not because his feelings are limited to this, but because he knows that's the most Kim can accept while crushing on Josh (and presumably heartbroken). So he takes Chippy shopping to the mall, to watch a movie, tries to tell Kim's mom what happened.

If Chippy actually were Kim, and Ron wanted to make a serious play for her, he couldn't possibly do better. Imagine what Kim might be thinking, seeing Josh and Bonnie, Josh's reaction, and Ron's rant!

But of course, Chippy isn't Kim. Kim's mutated into a monkey all right, but still recognizably Kim and quite able to talk, and giving Monkey Fist a lot of backtalk.



Cleverly using her prehensile tail, Kim escapes a cage and a handcuff chair. (Why does the Middleton Motor Lodge have this in the gym? Just wondering.) She gallops monkey-style back to the school, annoyed that Ron didn't come to her rescue.



Well, Ron rescues her now, holding off Monkey Fist, with Chippy's help, and wielding Wade's ray via the kimmunicator. So, for a second time, Ron saves his beautiful girl-- but does he win her affection?



We get kind of a shippy looking moment. Kim looks pretty happy, and Ron looks like he's trying to gather her in for a hug, but this doesn't happen.

My perception of the state of the soap opera, between the end of this episode and the start of the next one:

Kim: appreciates Ron, hard to say how much, possibly still crushing on Josh. By the next episode, "Exchange," she seems to be over Josh, but I don't think she tells Ron.

Ron: deeply devoted to Kim, in whatever way she'll allow, and thinks Kim and Josh are an item.

Josh: puzzled by Kim's behavior. If he thinks of her as his girlfriend at this point, he really wants to know what she's hiding. If he's already her ex, he may be just fooling with her to give her a hard time. Either way, by the next episode he's gone, and won't be seen or mentioned again till "Emotion Sickness." I'm assuming the monkey hands dictionary incident was the end for Josh. The incident with Bonnie, Ron and Chippy might put him off Ron, but I don't think he could blame Kim for this.

Bonnie: possibly flirting with Josh because Kim likes him. I could see Bonnie and Josh as a couple, but this never happens onstage. I think Bonnie likes Brick because Brick's dumb enough for her to control, usually. Bonnie seems to be going with Brick at the beginning of "Exchange." I'll explain why I think so when we get to that one.

« Last Edit: Aug 10, 2005, 2:32pm by cloudmonet »

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #568 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:15pm »

Gulp that is a lot of anaylsis

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Rhonda
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« Reply #569 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:21pm »

The fact the Ron thought the monkey was Kim was actually funny tho, and Mankey's obvious confusion made it better. And Bonnie would do anything to break Kim down....

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[end of page 38]

[cloudmonet]

Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) page 39
The Full Monkey continued.

Cached by Google on Aug 16, 2005, 6:36pm.
(Read 14,908 times)

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #570 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:26pm »
All I have to say is thank goodness Kim got over Josh quickly.

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Rhonda
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« Reply #571 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:27pm »
Yep VERY good thing

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #572 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:28pm »

STD's ending basically made it all up for me. A True Disney ending for the best couple since Mickey and Minnie.

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Rhonda
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« Reply #573 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:30pm »
I wanna see some episodes where they're a couple......

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #574 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:36pm »
"When" KP gets renewed I hope they deliver a bit on that as well.

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SaliNacomoospeaky
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« Reply #575 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:38pm »
Wow cloud, you've basically covered everything there is... Nice job!

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #576 on Aug 10, 2005, 2:42pm »

Quote:
“Gulp that is a lot of anaylsis.”


By this point in the saga, the question isn't so much "Do Kim and Ron like each other that way?" as "Why on earth aren't they routinely kissing and snuggling in each other's arms?" For the post-Sitch in Time season two episodes, the answer seems to be a complicated series of events cascading from Kim's crush on Josh and date with him in "Blush." Keeping track of this story arc, and making sure we understand and interpret it correctly, requires a lot of attention to details.

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Rhonda
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« Reply #577 on Aug 10, 2005, 3:07pm »
Yah really they touch a LOT!!!

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #578 on Aug 10, 2005, 3:10pm »
You said it, and Cloud have you started that book yet?
IP: Logged

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Rhonda
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« Reply #579 on Aug 10, 2005, 3:42pm »
;D

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #580 on Aug 10, 2005, 3:43pm »
cloud you there?

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Rhonda
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« Reply #581 on Aug 10, 2005, 3:45pm »

who knows?

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #582 on Aug 10, 2005, 3:47pm »
He comes and goes like the wind. Rho, check your pm box.

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #583 on Aug 10, 2005, 4:38pm »
Cloudmonet, coming and going like the wind.

These posts take awhile to compose, plus you've got me writing stories about an engaged Kim and Ron in college, which take much longer to write than the analyses, and oh yeah, sometimes real life gets interesting.
Like the wind, I'm probably gone again.

See, Yori and Hirotaka are chasing these evil ninjas all over China, and they've just called Kim and Ron for help, but--- aagh, I'm so off topic!
Come on, get into "The Full Monkey" for awhile. I'm not ready for "Exchange"!

« Last Edit: Aug 10, 2005, 4:42pm by cloudmonet »

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #584 on Aug 10, 2005, 4:41pm »
I think I felt a breeze.

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[end of page 39]

[cloudmonet]

Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) page 40
Cached by Google, Aug 16, 2005, 11:48pm
(Read 14,944 times)

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #585 on Aug 10, 2005, 4:47pm »
Whoosh.

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #586 on Aug 10, 2005, 4:49pm »
yep that would be it

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Rhonda
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« Reply #587 on Aug 10, 2005, 5:02pm »
lol

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #588 on Aug 10, 2005, 5:03pm »
Comedic isn't he?

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Rhonda
Blue Fox
****

« Reply #589 on Aug 10, 2005, 5:40pm »
yep

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #590 on Aug 10, 2005, 5:41pm »
And the Caption Master

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Rhonda
Blue Fox
****

« Reply #591 on Aug 10, 2005, 6:00pm »
yep

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #592 on Aug 10, 2005, 6:04pm »
We tremble at his quick approach.

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Rhonda
Blue Fox
****

« Reply #593 on Aug 10, 2005, 6:05pm »
hey speak for yourself lol

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #594 on Aug 10, 2005, 6:06pm »
Oh he has complimented me before. As he has you if I recall.

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Rhonda
Blue Fox
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« Reply #595 on Aug 11, 2005, 6:13pm »


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[cloudmonet]

KR FOREVER
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member is offline

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« Reply #596 on Aug 11, 2005, 7:17pm »

Off topic much? ;D Ok so we are on Full Monkey? Did you nodes Ron practicly gave Kim well chippy (but he thought it was Kim) to Josh! Then when Josh regected her or him and walked away, Ron stands up for Kim. He says "Kim is a wonderful girl and a buteful person! Im just sorry you cant see it!" or some thing like that. does any body know the exsact quote? I hate when people get a quote rong so I dont like to! any ways, I thought that was soooo sweet!!!! aww!

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AgHorizonFilm
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« Reply #597 on Aug 11, 2005, 8:55pm »
That was pretty funny.

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Potential Boy
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« Reply #598 on Aug 12, 2005, 1:53pm »
I know, in that epi Ron really does show his true colors to "Kim" [actually Chippy].

He's willing to make this work even though "she" has been "turned" into his worest nightmare...

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #599 on Aug 12, 2005, 2:18pm »

Ron wasn't actually "giving" Chippy, who he thought was Kim, to Josh. He thought Kim and Josh were already an item, and was chiding Josh for apparently flirting with Bonnie. Josh was at the lockers when Kim already had the monkey eyebrow, hands, and feet, and Ron assumed Josh noticed this and was aware of the transformation.


Evidently, Josh didn't notice the monkey hands holding the dictionary-- I don't know how he couldn't, but-- or else he didn't make the connection.

In Ron's eyes, Kim's boyfriend has to be at least as devoted to her as Ron is, a tall order indeed if accepting Kim as a non-talking monkey is part of the deal. One wonders how Josh would react if he actually believed Kim was the monkey, but I doubt he'd accept this the way Ron does.

This proves that Ron loves her more than any other boy ever could, but for the time being, he thinks she's out of reach.

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[end of page 40]

[cloudmonet]

Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2) Page 41
Cached by Google on Aug 18, 2005, 5:41pm
(Read 15,265 times)

Exchange

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GnuHopper
Guest

Re: Reevaluation of K/R feelings (Season 2)
« Reply #600 on Aug 13, 2005, 10:41pm »

Folks, I'm ready for Exchange. Unless someone wants to add more to the discussion of The Full Monkey then I say we move on.

I'll put up some comments in the morning unless someone else wants to start before then.

GH

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KR FOREVER
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« Reply #601 on Aug 14, 2005, 1:17am »
hay! I wana start too! Now lets see... Exchange. not much in it. there apart most of the ep and Ron likes Yori wile Kim likes Herotaka! but the end is kind of shippy. They hug. still not much but its something. This is a hard one so can any of you say something. you guys go into it deep. I stay in the shallow end. any body got more?

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GnuHopper
Guest

« Reply #602 on Aug 14, 2005, 12:32pm »

Well, looks like it's up to me to get the ball rolling, so without any further ado:

Exchange (or Just Whose Show Is It Anyway?)

Exchange is a title that actually applies on more than one level: we have the literal student exchange of Ron for Hirotaka, but we also have a metaphorical exchange of roles for Kim and Ron. For this episode Ron will take center stage as the hero, far away from Kim; while Kim will be relegated to the role of comic relief. And while the two are separated for much of the story, Exchange will still have some interesting things to say about the K/R relationship (a sort of "negative space" analysis, as it were).

A quick recap: Middletown High is sponsoring a student exchange with their sister school in Yamanouchi, Japan (considering we learn it's supposedly a *secret* school, how did this relationship develop?). Middletown hosts Hirotaka, a motorcycle riding, gum chewing hottie who soon has all the girls in school swooning. And Yamanouchi, meanwhile, gets...Ron Stoppable.

Pretty well ignored by Kim and Monique in favor of Hirotaka as they are packed off to Japan, Ron and Rufus arrive at the Tokyo airport and are picked up by Yori, a cute Japanese schoolgirl from Yamanouchi who immediately takes a shine to Ron. (Ron, for his part, does that same jaw-dropping maneuver he'll later do for Kim and her black dress in ES). It's a long climb up to Yamanouchi's mountainous location where they're greeted by the head of the school Master Sensei (special guest STAR TREK's George Takei). It turns out Yamanouchi is a training ground for Ninjas and Yori is one of the martial artists studying there. Ron is introduced to the Lotus Blade, a mystical sword of great power, and Fukushima, a hostile student who declares Ron an "outsider".

In Middletown Hirotaka continues to charm the girls, and impresses Kim and Monique when he takes Brick down a peg. Later he trades a few martial arts moves with Kim, leaving her (in her own words) "a crushing sheep". Meanwhile it's rough going for Ron as he tries to master the secrets of ninjitsu -- he falls asleep during meditation, loses his clothes during quarterstaff practice, and can't move fast enough to get lunch from the master lunchlady (although he does manage an impressive kick which knocks down a full grown tree -- too bad about the building in the way...). Though a bit discouraged, some kind words and a kiss on the cheek from Yori buck him up, and overall Ron seems to be enjoying his time amongst the ninja students.

Complications arise for both our heroes: Kim discovers that Monique also shares her interest in Hirotaka and all three end up on an uncomfortable "date" to a rock concert that ends up with the girls wrestling over who gets to sit next to the Asian hunk (who looks on bemused). While at Yamanouchi alarms sound as the Lotus Blade is stolen by our old friend Monkey Fist and his Ninja Chimps (apparently it didn't take long for him to escape Middletown Jail after the end of last episode). Sensei comes clean with Ron: Mr Possible was not brought here by accident. The Founder of Yamanouchi was a master of Tai Shi Pe Kwar and possessed mystical moneky power. The Lotus Blade, it seems, will only function for someone who also possesses the power -- which means either Monkey Fist, or Ron.

Although Sensai urges Ron to rescue the sword, our Mr. Stoppable isn't interested in risking his life for a piece of metal. But when he learns that Yori has been captured while trying to do the job, it's into fighting togs for Ron and Rufus as they set off to rescue and impress the beautiful girl with Fukushima along as guide.

After disposing of a few ninja monkeys at a Hot Spring, Ron and Rufus find Yori and untie her, looking to make a quick getaway. But it's a trap! Fukushima is working for Monkey Fist, and soon Ron and Yori are dangling in a cage over a lava pit straight out of "Indiana Jones & the Ninja Monkeys of Doom". But in the classic villain tradition MF's arrogance has led him to overlook a *third* possessor of mystical monkey power -- Rufus. In a few deft moves he bites his way out of his cage, steals the Lotus Blade, and rescues Ron and Yori. All three make a quick escape snowboarding (er, shieldboarding) down the mountain to a final showdown with Fist, Fukushima and their simian cohorts. The Lotus Blade goes over a cliff and things look grim, but a quick appearance of Sensei and his ninja students turns the tide, while Ron disposes of Fukushima with a little demo of what monkey kung fu can REALLY do.

Back at Yamanouchi Ron is able to summon back the blade due to his mystical connection to it and because, as Sensei states, "...your heart is pure." Sensei declares him a Warrior Hero ("Score!") and an obviously-smitten Yori kisses his cheek and wishes "Ron-san" goodbye.

Middletown Airport. Kim and Monique both wish Hirotaka farewell, and he tells them he must say goodbye to his number one girlfriend. Both girls wait in suspense -- until Hirotaka has BONNIE run into his arms and give him a big kiss goodbye. Kim and Monique are left deflated, egos bruised, and can only apologize to each other for risking their friendship over a crush. Just then Ron appears (apres naked mole rat) and Kim rushes over to hug him and welcome him home, Hirotaka apparently forgotten. She wants him to "spill" about everything that happened in Japan, but Ron has sworn to Sensei not to reveal anything about Yamanouchi. So we're left with a knowing smile and "You know...same old, same old."

But of course those last words are just the final irony in a episode full of them, as Exchange is far from the "same old, same old", and is paradoxically both one of the most atypical and archetypal episodes of the entire series.

It's a fair bet to say Kim Possible is not at her most impressive here. With no adventure to occupy her and her trusty sidekick away, she occupies her time crushing on Hirotaka. What motivates these feelings? Part of it seems to be Kim's usual competitive nature: with all the rest of the school's females taken with Hiro, naturally Alpha Girl Kim feels the need to assert her dominance by winning him for herself (as she tells Wade when she's sliding down an airduct to surprise Hiro, "I'm working here!"). This squares with her crushing on Bobbie Johnson in "Truth Hurts" just because Bonnie is interested in him. But (as far as Kim knows) Bonnie isn't her rival this time out -- Monique is. The two girls try to make light of the situation, then act civilized about it all. Still, their basic competitve natures take over and they end up wrestling over who gets the boy. But it's all eventually pointless. For it seems Bonnie has finally managed to best Kim, and in the end it's her arms, not Kim's or Monique's, that Hirotaka ends up in. All Kim has left to do is stew at Bonnie's victory and apologize to Monique for her behavior. Certainly the most ignominious defeat for Kim in the entire series.

And could at least some of her feelings for Hirotaka be a reaction to (1) the fact that Josh Mankey has apparently dropped out of her life since The Full Monkey? and (2) could she be missing Ron more than she lets on? The warmth of their final reunion scene where Ron's appearance seems to make her forget Hiro altogether. (Although to be fair, their shared interest in martial arts at least gives Kim SOME justification for her interest. Not to mention the fun scene where Hiro humiliates Brick without even touching him).

But Hirotaka, when all is said and done, is a smug jerk. He obviously enjoys seeing Kim and Monique fight over him, manipulates them to use Monique's Club Banana discount and get concert tickets, and the whole time while playing on their interest he's apparently got a side thing going with Bonnie (or are Kim and Monique the "side things"?). Prior to Eric, he's probably the best illustration of Kim's basic weakness of judging appearance over substance and letting herself be swayed by peer pressure.

Need a break. Be back in a bit to discuss Ron's adventures in ninjaland.

GH

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GnuHopper
Guest

« Reply #603 on Aug 14, 2005, 3:04pm »

Exchange part II

"There are many risings and advancings of the spirit."


As I've argued elsewhere one running theme for season two has been Ron's attempts to evolve from the role of sidekick into being a hero in his own right, conciously or subconciously to become "worthy" of Kim. In The Fearless Ferret he attempts to become a masked crimefighter, while in Job Unfair he is mentored by an actual secret agent. But while he managed to perform some actual good in both roles, neither really fit his personality. Now we see Ron thrust into a martial arts school right out of a Hong Kong chopsaki flick. But more importantly, in this episode Ron learns a lesson about the nature of heroism.

In many ways Ron Stoppable goes on the archetypical "Hero's Journey" in this episode. Leaving his home, training under a wise old teacher, gaining an admiring female to act as his muse and facing a quest involving a valuable mystical artifact that is resolved by facing his evil antithesis, snared by destiny but encouraged to "listen to your heart", herein Ron follows in the footsteps of Luke Skywalker, Frodo Baggins and their like. If ever there was an adventure that proved Ron was worthy of Kim, this is it.

But Kim isn't there with Ron this time out. While she's back in Middletown crushing on the shallow Hirotaka, Ron gains the attention of the beautiful Yori.

Of all the alternate romatic interests who come and go throughout the series, Yori is by far the most interesting. She apparently possesses athletic and fighting skills equal to Kim's, but a completely different personality. Where Kim is outgoing, Yori is humble. Where Kim leads, Yori is content to follow. Where Kim is deceived by Hirotaka's shallow charms, Yori discerns Ron's inner worth. And where Kim ends up discarded by her crush, Yori's faith is rewarded by Ron's rescue. Perhaps it is simply different social conditioning that allows Yori to recognize the heroism beneath Ron's flippant exterior, or maybe she's just more perceptive. Whichever, her willingness to defer to Ron's lead makes them a interesting contrast to our usual Possible/Stoppable team. And she is the only girl who ever threatens to invade Kim's private territory with Ron and take her place as his "adventure partner" (a theme that will be developed more in Gorilla Fist).

But most importantly, what makes Yori so interesting to me is that her feelings for Ron are *sincere*. Zita was at best mildly interested, Penny considered him a passing fancy, Tara had a schoolgirl crush...but Yori appears well and truly smitten with our Mr. Possible and apparently becomes more so throughout the episode, feelings that will survive and even continue to grow in her later appearance. And she is a lovely girl, skilled and capable, but also demure and supportive. Kim may be lucky that Ron didn't get a chance to spend more time with Yori, or else Miss Possible might've had a REAL fight on her hands! (No wonder Yori makes frequent appearances in KP fanfic, both as friend and rival to Kim).

Back to the topic of heroism. Previously Ron's brushes with heroics have been motivated by self-preservation (Sink or Swim, Monkey Fist Strikes!) or to impress Kim (The Fearless Ferret, A Very Possible Christmas). And he's not above seeking the cheers of the masses, whether through his legitimate skills (Two to Tutor) or by faking it (Naked Genius). But heroism, TRUE heroism, is not about what rewards we receive for doing good works, not even about impressing the girl. Doing the right thing is, in the end, requires one to "listen to what is in your heart", especially for someone like Ron whose "heart is pure" as Sensei says.

So when Ron defeats Monkey Fist and Fukushima (in an impressive display of mystical monkey power) and gets hailed as a warrior hero by Sensei, the most legitimate mentor he'll have in the whole series. All-in-all a good day for Ron -- heck, probably his best day ever and undeniable proof of Ron's hero street cred. So consider: with Josh Mankey now out of the picture, and Kim bummed by Hirotaka's rejection, what if Kim had known at the time about Ron's victory in Japan? What if Ron had shown up back in Middletown and spilled the whole story to her -- "I kicked Monkey Fist's tail, saved the magic sword, got named a Warrior Hero by a school full of ninjas and their wise old teacher, and oh yes this beautiful ninja girl is crazy for me. How about that?" Assuming Kim had believed him (and admittedly when she does find out in GF she does have trouble swallowing it) -- could it have motivated her to look at Ron in a new light?

But Ron is sworn to secrecy, a promise he keeps. Telling Kim the truth might've benefited him tremendously (and maybe not), but he never even considers breaking his oath for selfish reasons, not even for his goal of impressing Kim and gaining worth in her eyes. And so Ron Stoppable achieves the heroism he has striven for all season, ironically by hiding his accomplishments from the person he most wants to dazzle.

Ron Stoppable, Warrior Hero of Yamanouchi. What man could be worthier of the girl who can do anything?

GH

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[cloudmonet]

cloudmonet
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« Reply #604 on Aug 14, 2005, 3:29pm »

*Loud reverberating gong rings and slowly fades*

Ah, so. Now it will be our honor to discuss "Exchange."

[Footnote: composed while Gnuhopper-san was posting, so no response to his observations yet.]

So where are we at the start?
1) Rivalry between Kim and Bonnie is high.
2) Ron probably believes Kim is still dating Josh.
3) Kim and Josh are probably not still dating.

What do we see?
Kim, Monique, Ron, and Rufus, sitting on a bleacher, in that order, in regular clothes, one row above five of the six other cheerleaders, all in uniform. Tara is missing.

Speaking of missing, where's Monique been the past several episodes? I could be wrong, but I don't think we've seen her since "A Sitch in Time," or not much of her, anyway. It would have been interesting to hear her take on the events of "Blush" and "The Full Monkey." I'm guessing her reactions just wouldn't fit in 23 minutes, with everything else going on. So I'm not reading anything into her absence, but open to the possibility that there could be an explanation.

Enter the exchange student from Japan, Hirotaka, a kung fu Elvis James Dean who the five cheerleaders, and nearly every other girl in the gym, instantly swoon over like it's 1964 and the Beatles just stepped on stage.

Kim and Monique are priding themselves on not reacting like the others. Ron asserts his own irresistible masculinity by downing an entire tube of potato chips in one mouthful, and is still chewing when Barkin announces that Ron is going to Japan in exchange for Hirotaka.

"So, they we get motorcycle hotness and they get Stoppable? Any way we can make this trade permanent?" asks Bonnie.


The next day (or so I assume, since Kim and Monique have changed clothes), it's bye-bye Ron. No big hugs from Kim. She's not even standing next to him, and in fact, Kim and Monique are so distracted by not crushing on Hirotaka, unlike those other girls, that they don't even watch Ron's cab pull away.

From now till almost the end, we'll see two stories intercut, but I'll separate them for discussion purposes:


Ron and Yori

In Japan, Ron has his first bonified romance, with a beautiful ninja girl who's almost another Kim. He's not doing at all well at his studies at the secret ninja school, but Yori expresses confidence in him, and even kisses him goodnight on the cheek. He's well aware that Yori "likes him likes him," as he'll put it later in "Gorilla Fist."












What's the difference? In "Exchange" he thinks he has no chance with Kim. In "Gorilla Fist" he's focused on Kim's jealing as a sign of her affection for him, and not really paying attention to Yori's feelings after Kim enters the picture. He also might have been trying to prod Kim into admitting her feelings for him.

And note to the apparent majority of you who want to put "A Very Possible Christmas" in Kim and Ron's Junior Year: that would put Kim's mistletoe kiss after Yori's kisses. More about this below.


Enter Monkey Fist, whose monkey ninjas make their all time best appearance here. The entrances are spectacular, the kung fu moves also, and they manage to be cute and menacing at the same time. The lotus blade is stolen, a weapon whose magic can only be unlocked by someone with mystical monkey power. Hence Ron was invited to Japan, because somehow Sensei knew of Monkey Fist's intentions (and timing).

Ron believes he's way over his head, and refuses the task of fighting monkey fist and retrieving the blade. We'll leave aside the question of why the whole school doesn't go after Monkey Fist. Maybe events like this always become part of the student training. Anyway, in Ron's absence, Yori seizes the honor and gets captured.

Ron and his annoying rival, Fukushima, go up the mountain together. "But when it comes to saving the beautiful girl and winning her affection, that's my honor," Ron says firmly. He's just rescued Kim in a major way twice in a row and not gotten any closer to her. He thinks he has no chance with Kim, but a real chance with Yori. Ron's living in the moment, unconcerned with the ocean separating Yamanouchi from Middleton.

From now to the end of Ron's stay in Yamanouchi, Ron and Yori look and act very like Ron and Kim. They show all the same signs of being a couple, in battle and otherwise. This, I submit, validates all the Kim/Ron signs, subtle and otherwise, we've been digging out over the months.


This has gotta feel familiar to Ron.


This too.


Two kisses on the cheek in one episode? When has that ever happened to Ron before?


Hirotaka's Soap Opera

Meanwhile, in Middleton, the conspiracy theorist may wonder, where's Josh? Where's Tara? We do see them together later in "Emotion Sickness." Are they quietly off by themselves, making out with each other, while all the Hirotaka nuttiness is going on? Just a wild hypothesis.


Let's look at his present entourage: closest to him, Bonnie and Marcella. Jessica on his far right, the tall girl with freckles (who seems shorter than usual) on his far left, and two other girls we don't know. Hirotaka teases them, making them zip from booth to booth, unsure where he's going to sit.

Enter Brick Flagg, majorly annoyed, and challenging Hirotaka to fight. At my first glance, many months ago, this seemed like dumb football player belligerance, and Kim seems to see it this way, but it shows just how subtle the storytelling gets in this show. Look back to "Partners" and ahead to "Bonding" and "So the Drama." Brick thinks he's Bonnie's boyfriend and is majorly jealing here. At the end of the episode, it's revealed that Bonnie was Hirotaka's favorite girl, and she gets a major goodbye kiss.

The way Hirotaka fights Brick, without really doing much to him, seriously impresses both Kim and Monique, and they both start crushing on him. Wait, though-- this is Kim and Monique not crushing on Hirotaka, watching him with all his girls:



And here they are, crushing on him after the fight:


Do you see much difference in attitude? I don't. I think Kim was crushing on Hirotaka while she and Monique were vigorously in denial about it. Something to consider while questioning how Kim really feels about Ron.

So for most of the rest of this story, we see Kim and Monique pursuing Hirotaka, Kim using the sort of commando approaches she'll use on Ron in "Emotion Sickness."

I conclude that Kim's date with Josh in "Blush" has given her some confidence in approaching a boy she's crushing on. She's not totally incoherent. She discusses martial arts with Hirotaka, something they have in common.

What's Hirotaka's game, anyway? Does he collect girls like a rock star, searching for the best one but wanting plenty of others? I'm trying to imagine him in Yamanouchi, bowing respectfully to Sensei, doing all the ninja exercises. Does he have the same effect on Yori and the other ninja girls there? Or is this charm of his something that works with girls in town, or in America? Or is it all an act to keep the ninja school secret? It would be interesting to know.

Kim and Monique keep getting in each other's way, and finally Hirotaka provokes a catfight by not sitting between them at a concert.


Interesting to note, it's all wrestling, something Monique knows something about, and despite Kim's phenominal strength, Monique's doing pretty well. Contrary to her dismal performance in Austrailia in "A Sitch in Time," she's no wimp. Would you say, "You got some o' that chump hero kung fu? Bring it on!" to Kim Possible? Wow! We don't see who wins this struggle.

At the airport, with Hirotaka leaving, Kim and Monique work on making up with each other. He shocks them both by admitting his "favorite girlfriend" is Bonnie, and gives Bonnie a huge kiss on the lips.


Exit Hirotaka, enter Ron, and now we come to

The Hug!

Watch carefully. This doesn't last long, but it's something we've only seen before once, in "A Sitch in Time," the sad goodbye on the way to Norway, which has been erased from their memory like it never happened.

We have Kim and Ron in a full body hug, and look at their faces. Ron adores this, and once we see Kim's face, she's got eyes the size of saucers and a big grin like Ron's just saved all the cheerleaders by tying Gill's leg to a speeding motorboat.









What happened? First guess, Kim rebounds off Josh and Hirotaka, has a sudden new appreciation for the future love of her life. As for Ron, yeah, Yori likes him, but she's weird and mystical and far away in Japan, and this is Kim, the girl he really wants, and she's here and going to stay here.

So is the soap opera over? Maybe this is the intermission. Ron, because of his oath of secrecy, can't tell Kim anything about Japan, and he does keep this secret. Kim assumes this is because he crushed on someone there, which is quite true.

Kim and Ron aren't telling each other as much as they should, and more trouble will come of it, though at first the thread is rather thin.

But more about this hug. Let's compare it to the "Very Possible Christmas" hugs.


1) Ron thanks Kim for her gift. Kim kind of keeps Ron at a distance by holding his arms.


2) Kim reunited with Ron after fearing for his life after the Drakk Force One explosion. This is way less restrained. We get the big eyes and big smiles, but still just upper body contact.


3) Kim kisses Ron on the cheek, under a sprig of parsley playing the role of mistletoe. Nothing touches Ron but Kimmy lips.

And the "Exchange" hug.

?) Kim reunited with Ron after he's spent a week in Japan, for all Kim knows, a boring week at a public school with no life-threatening trouble. Kim presses herself against him, full body, with a bit of rocking back and forth.

I submit to you that the Exchange hug comes from a girl much more confident about her sexuality and closer to Ron than the girl in "A Very Possible Christmas," and therefore "Exchange" should come after "Christmas," which would put "Christmas" back in their sophomore year, rather earlier in season two.

The primary arguments against a sophomore year "Christmas" are

1) The remarks to Nakasumi and Miss Kyoto in "Christmas," referring to the "Crush" incident as though it happened before an earlier Christmas, but the exact phrasing is ambiguous, and Kim was under duress when she made the remark.

2) The Nana Possible problem. In "Golden Years," Kim says Ron has never met Nana. In "Christmas," Nana mentions that Ronald's little molerat always likes the eggnog. Okay, this logically means that Nana must have known Ron at least this Christmas and the one before. So if the "Golden Years" remark is true, and this is an episode from spring break of their sophomore year, and the "Christmas" remark is also true, then "Christmas" must be an episode from their senior year! Reductio ad absurdum, folks. There's gotta be a continuity error in some of these remarks.

Easiest conclusion: "You've never met my Nana" is the mistake. How could Ron hang out with the Possibles as much as he has for all those years and never crossed paths with Nana before? In "Golden Years," Nana was a new character to the writers, and they had Kim make a remark that proved inconsistent with the scenario developed later.
« Last Edit: Aug 14, 2005, 3:47pm by cloudmonet »

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #605 on Aug 14, 2005, 4:14pm »
And now, re gnuhopper's posts-- excellent observations all, only one thing I kind of disagree with-- Yori's personality.

She's a bit more like Kim than you think, but she's very subtle about it. A follower, not a leader? Who goes after the lotus blade when Ron refuses? Who goes all over the world searching for Sensei when he disappears? The Yamanouchi school is thick with Ninjas, but Yori's the one who charges into action every time. Very Kim-like, don't you think?


Yori, polite, reserved, but gets as angry as Kim in battle.

Yes, she has tremendous respect for Ron, more than Ron himself feels he deserves, and yes, like Shego with Drakken, she tries to make Ron look good, repeatedly giving him the honor of going first, but seizing control of the sitch herself whenever she has to.



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[cloudmonet]

JuPMod
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« Reply #606 on Aug 14, 2005, 7:00pm »

With GnuHopper and Cloudmonet, I don't think anyone else needs to make any comments. We just let you two do the talking for us. ;D

"Exchange" is one of the best KP episodes in the series, as GnuHopper mentioned, because of Ron being the hero for a change. It's nice to have Ron showing his potential. If he trains for a year or more, I bet he would become a good ninja.

As for Kim crushing on Hirotaka, yeah, it was for mostly comical moments more than anything. IMO, I think Hiro just acts that way when he's not in front of Sensei or another theory is that he acted this way as a front to prevent getting seriously involved with any girls, given he was only staying for a week. For a ninja school, I can't see someone like Hirotaka being a smart-a$$. Of course, if the school allowed Fukushima, a racist around, I'm sure somehow it bypassed Hiro's large ego.
(shrug) I'm sticking with the 'It was all a front' act regarding Hiro.

As for Yori and Ron connection, it is very hard for anyone to miss that Yori is like Kim in many ways. I just have to point to the polls on which girl would be better for Ron other than Kim, and most always go with Yori. Yori is a warrior and leader like Kim, but unlike Kim, Yori saw Ron's potential the first time out. It had taken Kim longer to realize Ron's potential, but Yori certainly saw it and thus why she immediately go for him.

The one thing that I don't get is this... Yori kisses Ron *twice* in this episode, and he saw them as *platonic* kisses? If the ending of "Gorilla Fist" was any indication he wouldn't have minded being Yori's boyfriend, why couldn't he put it together easily? I have to say, if he didn't, he really is very clueless regarding girls.

BTW, did Rufus saw ahead of time that Kim and Ron was meant to be? When Yori kissed Ron that second time, Rufus gave a rasberry. Did he gave it because of Yori saying 'Ron-san' or he really did not like the notion of Yori being with Ron? I couldn't figure out why Rufus stuck out his tongue after Yori kissed him on the cheek. If he really didn't mind Ron checking out girls in "Golden Years", it wouldn't make any sense for the little guy to disapprove of Yori, unless he really did saw the notion of Kim and Ron being together.

Anyway... You made good points Cloudmonet regarding that "AVPC" should take place before "Exchange" given the chain of events of Kim's way of hugging Ron.

So for me, "Exchange" is quite a great episode for Ron. He still had a long way to go to reach his potential, but least he knew he can be good as Kim if he wants to.

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GnuHopper
Guest

« Reply #607 on Aug 14, 2005, 8:10pm »
As usual Cloudmonet, excellent analysis. Plus you manage to spell "Middleton" correctly I notice.

A few responses:

And now, re gnuhopper's posts-- excellent observations all, only one thing I kind of disagree with-- Yori's personality.

She's a bit more like Kim than you think, but she's very subtle about it. A follower, not a leader? Who goes after the lotus blade when Ron refuses? Who goes all over the world searching for Sensei when he disappears? The Yamanouchi school is thick with Ninjas, but Yori's the one who charges into action every time. Very Kim-like, don't you think?

I'll agree that Yori is somewhat more like Kim than I initially perceived -- obviously she can be agressive when the need is there. And obviously it's her Kim-like qualities that attract Ron to her. But she's still less bossy than Kim, a fact that becomes apparent when the two meet in Gorilla Fist. OTOH, her ability to recognize Ron's inner potential where Kim has trouble could be attributed to the fact that Kim has just seen a lot more Stoppable pratfalls and wrong conclusions. Later in GF Yori will seem to have trouble recognizing Ron's shortcomings and only see him as a "great hero". In a way, her perceptual difficulties are the opposite of Kim's, who so often fails to see how much Ron can *really* do.

Speaking of missing, where's Monique been the past several episodes? I could be wrong, but I don't think we've seen her since "A Sitch in Time," or not much of her, anyway. It would have been interesting to hear he take on the events of "Blush" and "The Full Monkey." I'm guessing her reactions just wouldn't fit in 23 minutes, with everything else going on. So I'm not reading anything into her absence, but open to the possibility that there could be an explanation.

Monique, unlike Kim and Ron, actually has a regular after school job at Club Banana (as we're reminded here). I always assumed when she wasn't around it was because she had to work.

[quote}The next day (or so I assume, since Kim and Monique have changed clothes), it's bye-bye Ron. No big hugs from Kim. She's not even standing next to him, and in fact, Kim and Monique are so distracted by not crushing on Hirotaka, unlike those other girls, that they don't even watch Ron's cab pull away.[/quote]

Kim's lack or reaction to Ron's departure stands in stark contrast to the warmth of her greeting when he returns at the end. Methinks some of Kim's crush on Hirotaka is sublimation of her missing Ron. Compare he actions here to her almost constand calling him when he leaves for Norway in A Sitch in Time. I don't think she misses him any less here, it's just that she's sublimating those feelings (and whatever loss she's feeling for her apparent breakup with Mankey) into her attraction to Hiro.

In "Exchange" he thinks he has no chance with Kim. In "Gorilla Fist" he's focused on Kim's jealing as a sign of her affection for him, and not really paying attention to Yori's feelings after Kim enters the picture. He also might have been trying to prod Kim into admitting her feelings for him.

When Kim's around she's always going to be Ron's top priority. Attractive as Yori may be, and smitten with Ron as she is, in the end Kim was always going to be "the one". Such is the nature of true love.

Enter Monkey Fist, whose monkey ninjas make their all time best appearance here. The entrances are spectacular, the kung fu moves also, and they manage to be cute and menacing at the same time.

Good point. I particularly love the Ninja Monkey who appears when the bubble bursts in the hotspring.

Ron believes he's way over his head, and refuses the task of fighting monkey fist and retrieving the blade. We'll leave aside the question of why the whole school doesn't go after Monkey Fist.

My theory is that while Monkey Fist held the Lotus Blade he was pretty much invincible. We don't see all that it can do, but if Monkey Fist was planning on conquering the world with it then I would think it could do more than turn into a corkscrew. Perhaps only someone else with the mystical monkey power could take it from Monkey Fist, and Sensei knew that sending an army against MF while he held it was futile. Notice the Yamanouchi students don't attack until AFTER the blade goes over the cliff, safely away from the bad guys.

Enter Brick Flagg, majorly annoyed, and challenging Hirotaka to fight. At my first glance, many months ago, this seemed like dumb football player belligerance, and Kim seems to see it this way, but it shows just how subtle the storytelling gets in this show. Look back to "Partners" and ahead to "Bonding" and "So the Drama." Brick thinks he's Bonnie's boyfriend and is majorly jealing here.

Good call, and that was something I missed. One thing I liked about Brick is that he wasn't the stereotypical school bully (like, say, his counterpart Dash on DANNY PHANTOM), and I was a bit surprised to see him acting like one here. But your explanation adds some depth to his motivation and casts Brick in a slightly more sympathetic light.

What's Hirotaka's game, anyway? Does he collect girls like a rock star, searching for the best one but wanting plenty of others? I'm trying to imagine him in Yamanouchi, bowing respectfully to Sensei, doing all the ninja exercises. Does he have the same effect on Yori and the other ninja girls there? Or is this charm of his something that works with girls in town, or in America? Or is it all an act to keep the ninja school secret? It would be interesting to know.

I still say he's just a smug jerk under that cool exterior. He just seems a little too pleased at watching Kim and Monique make fools of themselves. (I like to think Sensei shipped him off to Middleton because he was getting on everyone's nerves).

Anyway, that's my take on Mr. Motorcycle Hotness.

GH

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[cloudmonet]

El Bissop
Guest

« Reply #608 on Aug 14, 2005, 8:21pm »

[I've been writing this off and on for a while, so alas it doesn't address many recent posts]

We all know about Ron and his "are all girls like this, or just the ones I know" preference for assertiveness and heroism in his significant others. But what about Kim? What's she looking for in a romantic interest?

Looks, attitude, and bon-diggity ride aside, Kim's attraction to Hirotaka is interesting, because in many ways Hirotaka is the anti-Mankey. While Josh Mankey was the sensitive, artistic type, Hirotaka's a rather action-oriented ninja (he rides a motorcycle and is quite good with kung fu). While Josh somewhat distanced himself from the dating scene (In "Crush" he turned down every girl's invitation to the dance until KP got up the courage to ask him), Hirotaka's got every girl in Middleton High hanging off his arm. Fittingly, Kim's approach to wooing Hirotaka is the exact 360 degree opposite of her approach vis-a-vie Josh.



We've heard Kim berate Ron for using up one of her "ride favors" for frivilous purposes, such as getting Le Goop from Paris or attending the Bueno Nacho opening in Go City. And yet, here's Kim, presumably calling in one of her favors to get a parachute drop into the Middleton Mall. Exactly why does Kim feel it necessary to parachute several thousand feet and down through the ventiliation system to meet up with Hirotaka? Can she just walk to the mall like she always does? The Kim we know would never have approached Josh in such a brazen, extrodinary manner.

I'd say that Kim's showing off. Despite Kim's casual "Hi there", it seems Hirotaka noticed KP's little commando dive out of the vent shaft, which may have been her intention all along. While Kim always tried to be "your basic, average girl" in front of Josh despite his expressed interest in her heroic side, she seems to be trying to wow Hirotaka with her "I can do anything" side.

It's possible that Kim has simply gotten more confident in her approach towards men. Alternatively, assuming her relationship with Josh has ended or is in the process of doing so, Kim may have come to realize that, being who she is and doing what she does, a normal relationship with a normal guy just won't work out. Here, she sees Hirotaka effortlessly evading Brick, and perhaps she sees someone that Kim Possible, Super Agent and World's Last Hope, can relate to.



Anyway, Kim catches up with Hirotaka and starts flirting with him. As it turns out, Hirotaka knows of Kim by reputation, and challenges her to a brief sparring match. The two of them show off their moves. Kim's impressed and seems quite smitten (or, as she puts it, "I'm a crushing sheep").

It's not often that Kim meets a man who can keep up with her physically. Will Du, GJ's "best agent", was below even Ron's skill level, Team Go had the collective intelligence of an avacodo, and in a year's time Kim will go on to crush Team Impossible without much apparent effort. Funnily enough, the only non-molerat male in the hero business who's ever come even somewhat close to matching Kim in terms of skill has been Ron. And, as we all know, Ron frequently looks silly, and Kim is often absent in those moments when he doesn't.

Anyway, Kim has finally met a guy who can high-kick like her without losing his pants in the process. She seems to like this.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the world, Ron's honing his inner Ninja and really not doing so bad when you consider he's got no formal training or first party certification. Despite his frequently comical pratfuls in Ninjitsu 101, Ron's actually holding his own. Besides the whole tree thing, Ron spars competently with Fukushima and even uses the opportunity to show off his mad Bo skills.



Geez he's fast. In fact, he's too fast, and somehow manages to destroy his clothes in the process. Ron's got the skills, but not the discipline, causing him to go over-the-top and end up either destroying stuff or humiliating himself. Nonetheless, he still manages to win the affections of Yori, who seems impressed by his earnestness and pure-heartedness ("Dude, please, nothing but love"), and actually amused by his comic antics, rather than pissed like KP gets when Ron starts with the randomness.



Meanwhile, Kim's having much less luck in the romance department. Hirotaka continues to prove himself the anti-Mankey, and I mean that in a bad way. While Mankey was an overall decent, kind fellow who stayed interested in Kim despite her manifest weirdness around him, Hiro here is a playa to the core and, apparently unimpressed by Kim's elite skills, continues to dangle her while playing her against Monique, all while macking with Bonnie and who knows who else off-screen. Ultimately, Hirotaka ends up favoring Bonnie. While Josh wanted the world-saving hero and got a rather random cheerleader, Hirotaka got the world-saving hero and ends up preferring a cheerleader. Geez, Kim just can't win.

Hirotaka's approach seems very "James Bond". Odds are you're gonna die hard, so you might as well live fast. Kim, on the other hand, is not James Bond, and manages to hold onto a core base of middle-class family values while dodging death rays, demented doctors, and dimunitive dictators.



One final interesting point. Kim didn't officially start taking an active interest in Hirotaka until he catches her eye by taking out Brick at Bueno Nacho. Interestingly, there's a remarkable similarity between the manner in which Hirotaka takes out Brick and the manner in which Ron takes out Fukushima, right down to the part where both Brick and Fukushima leap straight at the camera just before getting clobbered. A shame Kim never gets to see how well Ron handles himself.



Finally, while Rufus seems to like Yori, he doesn't seem too thrilled when she and Ron start getting romantic towards each other. Mayhaps our little furless friend, who's always been smarter than he lets on, is more aware of Ron and Kim's feelings for each other than they are themselves.

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cloudmonet
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« Reply #609 on Aug 14, 2005, 10:14pm »

So many good observations, E! Bissop. The only one I disagree with is when Kim started crushing on Hirotaka-- see my pictures in my first post. He had Kim's and Monique's attention as much as all the other girls, or so it appears to me. Until the fight with Brick, they had more class about it.

Hirotaka's just got too many charisma points for his own good. But for keeping the true nature of Yamanouchi secret, Sensei couldn't have picked a better student for the job. I can imagine him saying, "Take your motorcycle, play with all the girls, and they'll never guess what we're really all about even if you show off your kung fu."

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El Bissop
Guest

« Reply #610 on Aug 14, 2005, 11:22pm »

Cool observations everyone.

GnuHopper, I looked up "Hero's Journey" on Wikipedia, and as you've said, it's amazing how closely Ron's brief stay at Yamanuchi matches up to the archetype.

What's the difference? In "Exchange" he thinks he has no chance with Kim. In "Gorilla Fist" he's focused on Kim's jealing as a sign of her affection for him, and not really paying attention to Yori's feelings after Kim enters the picture. He also might have been trying to prod Kim into admitting her feelings for him.

CloudMonet, this is a really interesting point. You're right, it's pretty clear that Ron is perfectly aware that Yori's showing an interest in him, and was actually playing dumb at the end of "Gorilla Fist". But, if this means that Ron is actually smarter than he lets on, then I'd have to wonder which of many other instances Ron's obliviousness has been merely an act.

And, yeah, it looks like Kim and Monique were already taken in by the looks, the attitude, and the bon diggity ride when Hirotaka first showed up. I guess that just goes to show KP's tendency towards denial.

If Hirotaka's martial arts display is what got Kim to stop trying to deny and actually start pursuing him, I'd wonder how'd she react if she learned that Ron's skill-set wasn't merely limited to fitting an entire can of pringles into his mouth (which is, IMO, still a pretty cool trick).

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J2
Guest

« Reply #611 on Aug 15, 2005, 2:01am »

One thing is for sure: Ron didn't go to Japan to find love. Yori and her feelings for Ron was simply an added bonus. We know that Ron is attracted to the damsel in distress. Monkey Fist with the Lotus Blade isn't enough to give Ron enough confidence to take him on. But Yori being kidnapped does make him step up for hero time.

Hirotaka may look like a jerk: But for those of you who know a bit about anime, how many times have you see the plot of "anime hero has to marry daughter of rival family or clan to continue the tradition of the ancestors?" Hirotaka, finally away from the stress of constant training, discipline, and waking up at 4:00 am for the dragon course has time to be himself. Finding that his personality is a magnet for American babes, of course he's going to hit on many as he can. I get the feeling that his bad boy image is not as well received by his female co-students in Yamanuchi.

Josh's relationship with Kim is over: Or is it? If Kim and Josh were still together by this episode, it could explain why Ron felt something for Yori. Also Josh could have seen Kim crushing on Hirotaka and ended thier relationship the next time he saw her. That would also explain why Ron didn't know Kim and Josh were separated in ES.

Kim's crush on Hirotaka: Perhaps Kim and Josh were in the process of drifting apart and Kim blamed it on the idea that she saves the world and roundhouses bad guys on tv. A martial artist like Hirotaka could find that lifestyle more appealing. Also in the sudden event that the world needed saving, what better person would be a sidekick substitute than Hirotaka since Ron wasn't available? Kim has a thousand reasons why to crush on Hirotaka, and only one reason (that reason somewhere in Japan) not to.

Monique and Kim: Obviously Monique isn't afraid of Kim because she knows Kim really wouldn't hurt her. Kim isn't dirty enough to turn her best friend into hamburger meat. Bikini mud wrestling was probably brought up in friendly conversation later on with these two.

Hirotaka and Bonnie: I see Bonnie being much more sexually charged than the other MHS girls. I believe she "put out" more to attract Hirotaka for a quick fling. If Hirotaka did ask around about Kim and Monique, he would have heard about Kim and Ron and their "relationship." And Monique seems to project herself as today's strong, independent woman of the new century. Hirotaka wants somebody fast and cheap. Obviously, Hirotaka and Bonnie didn't have too much of a relationship as she gets back to her crush on Brick shortly after this. And the flip of her hair as she walks past Kim is her way of saying, "I won!"

Kim finds her current relationship over quicker than it started. Just in time for Ron to walk through the doors declaring, "The boys are back in town!" And Kim misses her best friend, and constant companion. Her Ron, the guy most girls don't want. And if they do want him, he's too clueless to notice. So there is no competition for him, and therefore, he belongs to her. That's why she hugs him at the end.

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Porphyria_Kris
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« Reply #612 on Aug 15, 2005, 2:20am »

Aug 15, 2005, 2:01am, J2 wrote:
“I get the feeling that his bad boy image is not as well received by his female co-students in Yamanuchi.”


I don't doubt it... in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that Yori is surrounded by conventionally self-assured guys like Hirotaka and Fukushima. After becoming an first class ninjitsu student I imagine one would be inclined to be aware of their own prowess.

When she sees some one like Ron come around... not as sure of his abilities, yet sincere with an earnest heart, she's more perceptive to him right off the bat than any other girl on the series has been (in a romantic sense, at least). He's most likely something entirely different to her and she's more likely to take note of his good points because of it.

« Last Edit: Aug 15, 2005, 2:21am by Porphyria_Kris »

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Aers
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« Reply #613 on Aug 15, 2005, 8:55am »

all fantastic observations... but if I may toss one more twig into the bonfire here...

I have to wonder if Sensei's choice of Hirotaka was also to try and keep KIM occupied enough that she wouldn't be calling Ron non-stop and interrupting his studies and/or finding out the truth about his "exchange school"...

she hasn't been shy about wanting to keep in almost constant contact with Ron (and vice versa) when the two of them are apart, and we didn't see her even try ONCE to call him via the Kimmunicator or ask Wade any questions, etc...

I put forth the theory that Hiro's primary mission was to keep Kim occupied so that Ron could be fully indoctrinated into the school without any interruptions as well as let him accomplish what he had to do without Kim's helpful interference...


IP: Logged

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JuPMod
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« Reply #614 on Aug 15, 2005, 9:08am »
^ Just out of curiosity, what episodes featured Kim keep calling Ron? IIRC, in "ASiT", Ron was the one calling her, and the same in "Adventures in Rufus Sitting". Yet I don't recall any episodes where Kim kept calling Ron.

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Aers
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« Reply #615 on Aug 15, 2005, 10:30am »

hmm... I'm getting it backwards, upon reflection...

duh!

but I still think that Hirotaka was an intentional distraction on Sensei's part to keep them apart... and out of contact with each other.

of course, I could be wrong.

again.



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cloudmonet
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« Reply #616 on Aug 15, 2005, 12:57pm »

Fascinating theory, Aers. Let's look at all the implications and see if it works.

1) Sensei knows about Kim and Ron's partnership/friendship.

Possibly. Sensei seems to have ways of finding things out. Although he could have found out about Ron's mystical monkey power without finding out about Kim, since she wasn't with him when he activated the jade monkeys in Monkey Fist's castle. This assumes in particular Sensei knows when the jade monkeys are being used, in which case he'd know they were destroyed and particularly focus on Ron as the only person able to use the lotus blade. But he could know about Kim anyway.

2) Sensei wants only Ron's help, not Kim's.

Why would this be his viewpoint?

It all makes sense if he doesn't know much about Kim-- possibly, see 1). But that would negate Hirotaka as Kim distraction.

3) Hirotaka's purpose is to get Kim's attention and keep it.

Okay, we've seen an ideal example of how do do this in Erik. Zero in on the target, sit next to her, turn on the charm. Does Hirotaka do this to Kim? No.

Could Kim still be the real target of Hirotaka's broadbased approach to all the girls except Tara? Being hard-to-get may focus Kim's attention on him, but it's not as dependable as having her by his side, which Hirotaka could have easily done.

4) Kim would have otherwise been in touch with Ron, and come to his rescue.

Maybe, but we know from "So the Drama" that Ron doesn't have a cell phone, only a pager. He doesn't have a ronnunicator in our present version of reality. Is his pager even in range?

Of course, Ron's not about to call Kim when he wants to be a hero for Yori, and when the sitch takes a turn toward the dire (the cage and the lava), Kim wouldn't have time to be a viable rescue option.

Could Sensei have used Yori to motivate Ron, sending her into Monkey Fist's grasp? I don't think so. Sensei seems too totally nice a guy to think like that, and it would diminish how the incident shows Yori's courage and leadership, consistent with her behavior in "Gorilla Fist."


So in summary, the theory that Hirotaka's role is specifically Kim distraction, while possible, is not the most plausible interpretation of his behavior. I'm sticking with my opinion that his purpose is to make Yamanouchi appear to be an ordinary Japanese public school. Either that, or Hirotaka is just a womanizer, but that makes it harder to imagine him at Yamanouchi.

I think the easiest explanation for Sensei wanting Ron but not Kim is that he doesn't know much about her. He probably learned about Ron and Monkey Fist through some mystical connection to the jade monkeys. Since this is the first known time Monkey Fist has come to Japan, Sensei may have sensed his presence and sought out Ron, his arch foe, not knowing much about Kim.

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[cloudmonet]

GnuHopper
Guest

« Reply #617 on Aug 15, 2005, 1:47pm »

Hmm...I still theorize that Sensei wanted Ron alone because the mystical nature of the Lotus Blade would prevent anyone from possessing it who doesn't have mystical monkey power. We never see anyone touch it who doesn't have the power (even Sensei carries it around in a case), and it's possible no one can even lay hands on it without the MMP. Plus, Sensei didn't want to reveal the truth of Yamanouchi to anyone more than he had to.

GH

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[cloudmonet]

campy
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« Reply #618 on Aug 15, 2005, 1:50pm »

I think the timing of the student exchange with Monkey Fist's attack was coincidence, just like Drakken & Shego operating in Florida when Kim happened to be there. The exchange program must have required weeks (if not months) worth of paperwork—in Rappin' Drakken it took a week just to get permission to hold a class outdoors. I think Sensei just wanted to meet Ron and things just developed from there, as they tend to do.

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JuPMod
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« Reply #619 on Aug 15, 2005, 2:28pm »

I'm with campy that it was just coincidence that Monkey Fist was there when Ron was there. Sensei just want to meet Ron and see whether he is the one who is destine to be the bearer of the Lotus Blade. (Better Ron than Monkey Fist)

As for all the idea of Hirotaka wanted to make it look like he is from a regular Japanese school, that would make sense. *However* I think Hirotaka didn't show what the average Japanese student would act or do. He pretty much showed his martial arts skills to everyone to see, so I can't see how everyone would think every Japanese would know martial arts.

Look at this way, he acted more American (like the Fonz) than Japanese. The way he acted, he seemed to be enjoying himself. So perhaps he took the opportunity to enjoy being in America and thus thought how he should act. Plus, knowing he wouldn't able to act the way he did in Yamanuchi, he perhaps enjoyed being the center of women's attention for a change.

So given he couldn't get away with such an womanizing attitude at Yamanuchi, he let go in America. Of course, one should ask, why Sensei chosen him to go to America? He certainly look like he is one of Yamanuchi's best students (if not the top student). Sensei no doubt would send his best student in exchange. Plus given Hirotaka also seemed to enjoy American culture, it would be make a wise choise to choose him to go.

So the way I see it, Hirotaka is not a total womanizer jerk, or else he wouldn't be in such a school as Yamanuchi. He just was enjoying the attention that he wouldn't able to get at Yamanuchi, not to mention he seemed to enjoy American culture.

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