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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 10, 2007 20:03:48 GMT -5
Oh, yes, preferring the characters to be IN character is SO narrow minded. (/sarcasm) Sorry to tell you this, but I don't think most people might agree that their relationship is a must to keep them in character. I know I know a lot who doesn't think so narrow-minded-y. |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 10, 2007 20:04:30 GMT -5
Would you rather he commit suicide upon Kim's death? Because expecting him to go on completely loveless for the rest of his young life would be a bit much. Well, no, I'd write the second. Of course, when I write death, I usually make it a comic book death. By the end of the story, they've returned, and their relationship has grown even stronger. On a related yet off topic note, Comic Book Deaths FOR THE WIN~! ;D |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 10, 2007 20:07:31 GMT -5
Well, no, I'd write the second. Of course, when I write death, I usually make it a comic book death. By the end of the story, they've returned, and their relationship has grown even stronger. On a related yet off topic note, Comic Book Deaths FOR THE WIN~! ;D Amen to that! *high fives* Hey, we actually agreed on something! ;D |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 10, 2007 20:08:46 GMT -5
Oh, yes, preferring the characters to be IN character is SO narrow minded. (/sarcasm) Sorry to tell you this, but I don't think most people might agree that their relationship is a must to keep them in character. I know I know a lot who doesn't think so narrow-minded-y. I put a lot of stock in relationships because, as the saying goes, "you can tell a lot about a man from the company he keeps." |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 10, 2007 20:20:00 GMT -5
On a related yet off topic note, Comic Book Deaths FOR THE WIN~! ;D Amen to that! *high fives* Hey, we actually agreed on something! ;D Well, odds dictate that it had to happen sooner or later.  "If the odds of winning the lottery are a billion to one, and you play the lottery a billion times, you're guaranteed to win at least once." |
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Oct 10, 2007 21:06:06 GMT -5
What is 'sick and wrong' is subjective in many ways. You can look at 'anti-canon' fics as sick and wrong all you wish, just as long as you don't expect your opinion to be a universally accepted one. Yes, but she's arguing that writing and plot should be the frontseat and the ship be the back. That's not right. Ships are just as important as those other factors. Romance and chemistry are, because they are facets of character development, but not "shippiness". Too many people write fics based only on the fact that two characters were placed together in canon. They do nothing for the romance. They do nothing to examine the characters' romantic relationship. Have you read Scoutcraft Piratess's fic "Envying Monte Cristo" (chances are you haven't, but y'never know)? It raises an interesting and rather heart-wrenching scenario where Kim comes back to Middleton years after her supposed 'death', to find that Ron has moved on (somewhat) and is engaged to Monique. If Ron chooses to stay with Monique, and considering the circumstances, is that canon rape? Technically Kim and Ron didn't break up, technically Kim was dead (as far as anyone else knew), so technically the conditions you met for a K/R split were met, were they not? Yes, I'd call canon-rape there. I just can't see either of them getting over the other's death. If Ron stayed with Monique, he'd be bordering on, depending on other actions, entering a subset I've seen several times that I like to call Jerk!Ron. Jerk!Ron is a stereotype mainly found (to my experience) in Kigo fics to give Kim an *ahem* "plausible" reason to break up. However, this Ron, similar to the Daria stereotype of Evil!Tom, is vastly OOC. A good example of Jerk!Ron at his manipulative best is in clayton's fic "Dancing with the Enemy." Excuse me? Have you even read my fic? How dare you judge anything about the characters without having read it? That is being closed-minded. To let you know, with that fic, I am having a blast with Kim and Ron's love for each other. How dare you judge any of the characters. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 10, 2007 21:11:59 GMT -5
Yes, but she's arguing that writing and plot should be the frontseat and the ship be the back. That's not right. Ships are just as important as those other factors. Romance and chemistry are, because they are facets of character development, but not "shippiness". Too many people write fics based only on the fact that two characters were placed together in canon. They do nothing for the romance. They do nothing to examine the characters' romantic relationship. Well, I must disagree. You can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps, and by changing that company, you change that man (or woman) into someone else. That's why I honor canon relationships. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 10, 2007 21:13:24 GMT -5
Yes, but she's arguing that writing and plot should be the frontseat and the ship be the back. That's not right. Ships are just as important as those other factors. Romance and chemistry are, because they are facets of character development, but not "shippiness". Too many people write fics based only on the fact that two characters were placed together in canon. They do nothing for the romance. They do nothing to examine the characters' romantic relationship. Yes, I'd call canon-rape there. I just can't see either of them getting over the other's death. If Ron stayed with Monique, he'd be bordering on, depending on other actions, entering a subset I've seen several times that I like to call Jerk!Ron. Jerk!Ron is a stereotype mainly found (to my experience) in Kigo fics to give Kim an *ahem* "plausible" reason to break up. However, this Ron, similar to the Daria stereotype of Evil!Tom, is vastly OOC. A good example of Jerk!Ron at his manipulative best is in clayton's fic "Dancing with the Enemy." Excuse me? Have you even read my fic? How dare you judge anything about the characters without having read it? That is being closed-minded. To let you know, with that fic, I am having a blast with Kim and Ron's love for each other. How dare you judge any of the characters. Note the words "depending on other actions." I acknowledged there I was going only on what they said. I am sorry if they misled me and gave me the bad out of context. |
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Oct 10, 2007 21:13:30 GMT -5
Romance and chemistry are, because they are facets of character development, but not "shippiness". Too many people write fics based only on the fact that two characters were placed together in canon. They do nothing for the romance. They do nothing to examine the characters' romantic relationship. Well, I must disagree. You can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps, and by changing that company, you change that man (or woman) into someone else. That's why I honor canon relationships. So let met get this straight: if I break-up with my boyfriend and get another boyfriend sometime later, I am a competely and totally different person. Your little adage means nothing. What you are saying is that the fact that Kim and Ron are together in a fic is all we need. You don't like fics that examine their relationship, that work to make them a couple? I love K/R. All I was saying in that post is that it takes more than two characters to make a fic, or any story, romantic. They need to be solid characters, and that is a huge part of fanfiction. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 10, 2007 21:30:03 GMT -5
Well, I must disagree. You can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps, and by changing that company, you change that man (or woman) into someone else. That's why I honor canon relationships. So let met get this straight: if I break-up with my boyfriend and get another boyfriend sometime later, I am a competely and totally different person. Your little adage means nothing. What you are saying is that the fact that Kim and Ron are together in a fic is all we need. You don't like fics that examine their relationship, that work to make them a couple? I love K/R. All I was saying in that post is that it takes more than two characters to make a fic, or any story, romantic. They need to be solid characters, and that is a huge part of fanfiction. All we need to be enjoyed. 2 characters can make a good one-shot. For an actual fic, it takes more. I like fics that examine the relationship WITHOUT killing it (or either of them) first. The same way I hate frog dissection in class- I empathize with what you're dissecting. Kim and Ron belong together. I never said that was ALL you need for a good KP story, but it is the base, IMO. Also, I'd like to say again that I'm sorry I judged your fic without reading.  I was going by the misleading set up I was given. I'll check it out tomorrow, and then tell you what I think, ok? |
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Oct 10, 2007 21:32:48 GMT -5
I agree with the examining without killing it. Always a plus to reading a fic.
Sorry I exploded. I'm sensitive sometimes, and I like to think that I care about characters.
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 10, 2007 21:39:01 GMT -5
I agree with the examining without killing it. Always a plus to reading a fic. Sorry I exploded. I'm sensitive sometimes, and I like to think that I care about characters. It's ok, I would've done the same. As for the caring, well, there is such a thing as over-empathising with them. When a character's embarassed, I'll often fastforward through the part, or put my face in my hands. I just identify too much. I've written things that make me cry when I write them, and I know it's more than anyone else would at the same words. |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 11, 2007 5:28:49 GMT -5
So let met get this straight: if I break-up with my boyfriend and get another boyfriend sometime later, I am a competely and totally different person. Your little adage means nothing. What you are saying is that the fact that Kim and Ron are together in a fic is all we need. You don't like fics that examine their relationship, that work to make them a couple? I love K/R. All I was saying in that post is that it takes more than two characters to make a fic, or any story, romantic. They need to be solid characters, and that is a huge part of fanfiction. All we need to be enjoyed. 2 characters can make a good one-shot. For an actual fic, it takes more. I like fics that examine the relationship WITHOUT killing it (or either of them) first. The same way I hate frog dissection in class- I empathize with what you're dissecting. Kim and Ron belong together. I never said that was ALL you need for a good KP story, but it is the base, IMO. Also, I'd like to say again that I'm sorry I judged your fic without reading. I was going by the misleading set up I was given. I'll check it out tomorrow, and then tell you what I think, ok? I wanna apologize too for misrepresenting SP's fic. I just wanted to catch the gist of the scenario without having to go into all the details of it. Having read back over the post, I can see how it could be misleading to one who hasn't read the fic. |
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Post by MrDrP on Oct 11, 2007 7:42:16 GMT -5
Have you read Scoutcraft Piratess's fic "Envying Monte Cristo" (chances are you haven't, but y'never know)? It raises an interesting and rather heart-wrenching scenario where Kim comes back to Middleton years after her supposed 'death', to find that Ron has moved on (somewhat) and is engaged to Monique. If Ron chooses to stay with Monique, and considering the circumstances, is that canon rape? Technically Kim and Ron didn't break up, technically Kim was dead (as far as anyone else knew), so technically the conditions you met for a K/R split were met, were they not? Yes, I'd call canon-rape there. I just can't see either of them getting over the other's death. If Ron stayed with Monique, he'd be bordering on, depending on other actions, entering a subset I've seen several times that I like to call Jerk!Ron. Jerk!Ron is a stereotype mainly found (to my experience) in Kigo fics to give Kim an *ahem* "plausible" reason to break up. However, this Ron, similar to the Daria stereotype of Evil!Tom, is vastly OOC. A good example of Jerk!Ron at his manipulative best is in clayton's fic "Dancing with the Enemy." I have to disagree with you, Robbie. Both Kim and Ron would take the other's death very, very hard, but I don't think it's impossible that the survivor would enter into another relationship after his or her partner's death. By the end of Graduation it's clear that the two are both very attached to one another and concerned for the other's happiness. The survivor would know that the deceased would want him or her to carry on with life. Scoutcraft's excellent story is maddening (in all the right ways) because she is sop deftly exploring the tensions between Kim, Ron, and Monique. Ron's situation is poignant because he did move on after Kim's death -- yet now he know she's not dead and the past is very much alive for him. He is in no way being portrayed as a jerk; instead, he's eminently sympathetic and in IC. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 11, 2007 8:09:27 GMT -5
Yes, I'd call canon-rape there. I just can't see either of them getting over the other's death. If Ron stayed with Monique, he'd be bordering on, depending on other actions, entering a subset I've seen several times that I like to call Jerk!Ron. Jerk!Ron is a stereotype mainly found (to my experience) in Kigo fics to give Kim an *ahem* "plausible" reason to break up. However, this Ron, similar to the Daria stereotype of Evil!Tom, is vastly OOC. A good example of Jerk!Ron at his manipulative best is in clayton's fic "Dancing with the Enemy." I have to disagree with you, Robbie. Both Kim and Ron would take the other's death very, very hard, but I don't think it's impossible that the survivor would enter into another relationship after his or her partner's death. By the end of Graduation it's clear that the two are both very attached to one another and concerned for the other's happiness. The survivor would know that the deceased would want him or her to carry on with life. Scoutcraft's excellent story is maddening (in all the right ways) because she is sop deftly exploring the tensions between Kim, Ron, and Monique. Ron's situation is poignant because he did move on after Kim's death -- yet now he know she's not dead and the past is very much alive for him. He is in no way being portrayed as a jerk; instead, he's eminently sympathetic and in IC. Yeah, I've read to about chapter 8, and he's not OOC as that skewed summary I was given. Still, given the same situation, I see Ron taking at least 5 years to get over her death, and 8-10 to do so to the point of being able to be with someone else. Of course, in my mind if Kim died, Ron would become a Spider-man/Punisher hybrid vigilante. Dedicate his life to the one area Kim spent most of her time on- justice. So, I guess that just goes to show how broadly Ron can be interpreted. I see him as being a more fixated/obsessive individual, I guess. |
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 11, 2007 8:14:25 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you, Robbie. Both Kim and Ron would take the other's death very, very hard, but I don't think it's impossible that the survivor would enter into another relationship after his or her partner's death. By the end of Graduation it's clear that the two are both very attached to one another and concerned for the other's happiness. The survivor would know that the deceased would want him or her to carry on with life. Scoutcraft's excellent story is maddening (in all the right ways) because she is sop deftly exploring the tensions between Kim, Ron, and Monique. Ron's situation is poignant because he did move on after Kim's death -- yet now he know she's not dead and the past is very much alive for him. He is in no way being portrayed as a jerk; instead, he's eminently sympathetic and in IC. Yeah, I've read to about chapter 8, and he's not OOC as that skewed summary I was given. Geez, I did say I was sorry for that.  |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 11, 2007 8:16:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I've read to about chapter 8, and he's not OOC as that skewed summary I was given. Geez, I did say I was sorry for that. Well, MrDrP seemed to think I'd actually read the fic at that point. Just making sure he knew I hadn't. |
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Post by slicknickshady on Oct 11, 2007 9:09:00 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you, Robbie. Both Kim and Ron would take the other's death very, very hard, but I don't think it's impossible that the survivor would enter into another relationship after his or her partner's death. By the end of Graduation it's clear that the two are both very attached to one another and concerned for the other's happiness. The survivor would know that the deceased would want him or her to carry on with life. Scoutcraft's excellent story is maddening (in all the right ways) because she is sop deftly exploring the tensions between Kim, Ron, and Monique. Ron's situation is poignant because he did move on after Kim's death -- yet now he know she's not dead and the past is very much alive for him. He is in no way being portrayed as a jerk; instead, he's eminently sympathetic and in IC. Robbie was very mislead about what the story was about. Also though how Kim/Ron would react to the others death is probably the biggest think K/R fan's disagree on. Some think they would never move onto another relationship and some think they would move onto another one. I'm not a big angst fan but i do love this story by you.... www.fanfiction.net/s/2969769/1/Epic_Sitch_Best_FriendsI believe what you said in that story is how Kim/Ron would react to the other's death. I believe Ron would have did the same thing if Kim had died. It does not matter the age they were, 17 or 100. |
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Post by MrDrP on Oct 11, 2007 9:30:45 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you, Robbie. Both Kim and Ron would take the other's death very, very hard, but I don't think it's impossible that the survivor would enter into another relationship after his or her partner's death. By the end of Graduation it's clear that the two are both very attached to one another and concerned for the other's happiness. The survivor would know that the deceased would want him or her to carry on with life. Scoutcraft's excellent story is maddening (in all the right ways) because she is sop deftly exploring the tensions between Kim, Ron, and Monique. Ron's situation is poignant because he did move on after Kim's death -- yet now he know she's not dead and the past is very much alive for him. He is in no way being portrayed as a jerk; instead, he's eminently sympathetic and in IC. Robbie was very mislead about what the story was about. Also though how Kim/Ron would react to the others death is probably the biggest think K/R fan's disagree on. Some think they would never move onto another relationship and some think they would move onto another one. I'm not a big angst fan but i do love this story by you.... www.fanfiction.net/s/2969769/1/Epic_Sitch_Best_FriendsI believe what you said in that story is how Kim/Ron would react to the other's death. I believe Ron would have did the same thing if Kim had died. It does not matter the age they were, 17 or 100. Please note that I said Kim or Ron "could" enter into another relationship, not would. I do think their receptivity to romance with someone else would depend on how old they were. There is a difference between being 17 and in one's mid-70s, after all. To be honest, I modeled Kim in Best Friends on my mother. My parents had been married for 30 years when Dad died; my mother was in her mid-50s. She had many opportunities to date, but felt that she'd had a lifetime's worth of romance with Dad. I saw Kim feeling the same way. |
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Post by Robbie Valiant, P.I. on Oct 11, 2007 9:39:59 GMT -5
I personally think Ron would consider getting with someone else to be an offense to Kim's memory, and stopping the save the world-thing to be an even greater offense. He'd continue, for Kim. The same way Bruce Wayne continued for his parents. And Peter Parker continued for his uncle Ben.
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I was going by the misleading set up I was given. I'll check it out tomorrow, and then tell you what I think, ok?
