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Post by lecter on Oct 10, 2007 2:52:23 GMT -5
no,no,no. before and AFTER bonding bonnie was and still staid shallow
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 10, 2007 5:58:53 GMT -5
It just occurred to me that the only characters with any lasting character development were Kim, Ron and Shego. Everyone else (with the exception of Drakken) was pretty much the same character at the end of the show that they were at the beginning.
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 10, 2007 7:21:17 GMT -5
no,no,no. before and AFTER bonding bonnie was and still staid shallow Like I said: The decision of the writters to forget about all the in-deep they gave to the character afterwards.
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Post by profweird on Oct 12, 2007 12:31:06 GMT -5
So you mean... the writters/creators/author sucked at that? For god's sake. The scene in "Bonding" with Bonnie's sisters was probably one of the best ideas in the WHOLE series, and I didn't see anything out-of-character there. It would've been a good idea had they actually intended to do something with it. It was a bad idea because they took a character whose ONLY ROLE IN THE SERIES was that of a pregnant dogy, one-dimensional antagonist, gave her some character development, and then snatched it away once they remembered that one-dimensional characters are only supposed to have one dimension. You noticed that too. It's the reason I'll only watch the last five minutes of 'Homecoming Upset' - watching the whole thing is like watching someone you know get a lobotomy. You can almost feel the development being scraped away. A decade of emotional abuse should qualify as an extenuating or mitigating circumstance as to why she is the way she is - true, she IS mean, but should get some slack (given that the emotional abuse she's RECEIVED is about ten thousand times greater than any she could ever actually deliver to anyone). If someone steals drugs from a drugstore to save a life, he IS technically guilty of the crime, but how he'd be punished is a seperate question. It's because mitigating/extenuating circumstances are valid and useful that people try to misuse them - the silly 'twinky defense' for example. 'Accidental continuity' is a common trait - with no actual continuity, the self-contained episodes can be aired in any order without confusion or conflict. What was with all the airtime for Ron Reger ? Did someone win a 'see yourself on KP' contest and they forgot to announce it or something ? The series was ending, and they start giving a new character airtime ?
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Oct 12, 2007 19:48:34 GMT -5
Is it necessary for Bonnie to change her entire personality just because one person found out about her relationship with her sisters? I think not.
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 12, 2007 21:19:54 GMT -5
Is it necessary for Bonnie to change her entire personality just because one person found out about her relationship with her sisters? I think not. Yes, because having character development obviously requires a total personality adjustment.
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Post by Whisper from the Shadows on Oct 13, 2007 0:22:13 GMT -5
Is it necessary for Bonnie to change her entire personality just because one person found out about her relationship with her sisters? I think not. However, just as a note. Bonnie was mean before we saw why she acted that way, just because Kim knows why she does it doesn't mean that Bonnie's going to change over night. She's still going through the same crap she has for years, and she's still reacting the same way she has for years. Now, if Kim had made an effort to pursue a friendship (or even a cautious truce) after finding out about Bonnie's home life, I could see some visible changes in her behavior. As it was, Kim didn't change the way she treated Bonnie, she didn't go try to "play nice" and for Bonnie to have made that effort would have been showing signs of "weakness" (which means she wasn't about to do that). I'm not blaming Kim, she is human, and Bonnie has been a grade-A @$$ to her over the years. No one really wants to put any effort into being close to someone that has made your life miserable, whether you find out they have a problem or not. People just seem to be able to put what I've been saying into simple words... thanks honey.
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Oct 13, 2007 1:20:43 GMT -5
Is it necessary for Bonnie to change her entire personality just because one person found out about her relationship with her sisters? I think not. Yes, because having character development obviously requires a total personality adjustment. Hardly. Entire personality adjustment can alter a character beyond recognition... which is not and never has been anything but lousy, amateur character development.
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 13, 2007 1:24:14 GMT -5
Yes, because having character development obviously requires a total personality adjustment. Hardly. Entire personality adjustment can alter a character beyond recognition... which is not and never has been anything but lousy, amateur character development. I'm nearly sure he was being sarcasting with his answer. Bonnie does not need to change 100%, but what we've seen in that episode shows that she has the potential to grown into a nicer and more interesting character.
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 13, 2007 6:56:35 GMT -5
Yes, because having character development obviously requires a total personality adjustment. Hardly. Entire personality adjustment can alter a character beyond recognition... which is not and never has been anything but lousy, amateur character development. Someone really should decree the eyeroll smilie as the official 'sarcasm' smilie. Either that or we should have official 'sarcasm' tags. [/sarcasm]
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Post by mike on Oct 13, 2007 7:25:56 GMT -5
Hardly. Entire personality adjustment can alter a character beyond recognition... which is not and never has been anything but lousy, amateur character development. Someone really should decree the eyeroll smilie as the official 'sarcasm' smilie. Either that or we should have official 'sarcasm' tags. [/sarcasm] right
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 13, 2007 8:37:37 GMT -5
Someone really should decree the eyeroll smilie as the official 'sarcasm' smilie. Either that or we should have official 'sarcasm' tags. [/sarcasm] right ^ Perfect example of the unofficially designated sarcasm smiley at work. ;D
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Post by mike on Oct 13, 2007 8:45:30 GMT -5
right
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Post by Firelady Nemo on Oct 13, 2007 13:49:59 GMT -5
he just likes to post that particular smiley
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Post by lonestarr357 on Oct 14, 2007 19:04:41 GMT -5
So you mean... the writters/creators/author sucked at that? Those are your words, used in that exact sequence...not mine. The scene in "Bonding" with Bonnie's sisters was probably one of the best ideas in the WHOLE series, and I didn't see anything out-of-character there. I don't think I can accurately vocalize how poorly it reflects on the series if this was one of the best ideas. She was one-dimensional for the most part, but "Bonding" really did a big work on her, explaining her character (EXPLAINING, not justifying) and making her quite human, not just an stereotype. The big mistake for the writters was to ignore all this during the rest of the series (then again, considering their quote of "continuity by accident", what coud we have expected?) and portrayed her at her worst during "Homecoming Upset", and no, I didn't like that episode even though I'm a fan of Bonnie. I prefered her portrayal as an Anti-Hero at "Cap'n'Drakken". In this order: a) "Bonding" did nothing more than trick its audience into feeling sympathy for a character who couldn't deserve less of it. Thankfully, not everyone was taken in by the ruse. b) I won't disagree that "Homecoming Upset" portrayed Bonnie at her worst (like an ice cream headache compounded by a broken leg), but at the same time, it reprised the 'false sympathy' trick, complete with crocodile tears. c) An anti-hero, as I understand it, is someone only out for themselves, but their actions to save their own skin end up benefitting the majority. As far as I'm concerned, eliminate everything before 'someone' and after 'themselves' and that describes Bonnie to a T. (I honestly can't think of any examples that bring her anything near this definition.) You can tell that to Barkin, Ron's cousin, Gill, the lady of the library and ANY of the villains that would be dead if Kim hadn't stop another villain. Honestly, do you expect KP's universe to consider such logic? Who said anything about logic? I'm talking about common decency. I'm talking about simple, human respect. It kills me that people fall all over themselves trying to defend (I wish there was another word for it, but if the shoe fits...) Bonnie and her actions. In another thread, there was a debate about Bonnie being the most realistic character on the show (a point which still gives me the chills). So, in reality, even if someone was better than a particular person and that someone ended up helping that person time and again, the particular person would still be an ingrateful &@%&@$#* about it? What other word is there but 'yikes'? And getting back to the whole sister thing, I've felt it to be a rather half-hearted, quick-fix method of character definition (see also: "Hey Arnold!", "Camp Lazlo") and it wasn't until a little movie called The Invisible that I realized just how much. In that movie, this kid named Nick was beaten half to death. The main perpetrator was this bully named Annie (yep, a girl). Later in the film, she's the only one who hears his wandering spirit and there's this rather forced romantic angle, but staying on topic... we see throughout that (faster than you can spell 'plot contrivance') she comes from a broken home...which is perfectly acceptable background for a criminal. We (by which, I mean everyone but me) can't keep defending nonsense like this forever. Sooner or later, you have to see both sides.
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 14, 2007 22:07:42 GMT -5
So you mean... the writters/creators/author sucked at that? Those are your words, used in that exact sequence...not mine. Well, I'm ASKING, not stating that you did so. You could a much better job explaining your words instead of questioning mines. The scene in "Bonding" with Bonnie's sisters was probably one of the best ideas in the WHOLE series, and I didn't see anything out-of-character there. I don't think I can accurately vocalize how poorly it reflects on the series if this was one of the best ideas. An scene, even if brief, that shows in-deep in a character that can make such character more than just an archetype or a one-dimensional character, regardless of who it is, it's a excellent addendum, specially for a show like this, in which the characters are the main focus for the audience. "Bonding" did nothing more than trick its audience into feeling sympathy for a character who couldn't deserve less of it. Thankfully, not everyone was taken in by the ruse. 1) What? Now the writers are deceiving us? 2) Who are you to say whenever someone is worthy of sympathy or not? And who are you to question someone who wants to give it? I won't disagree that "Homecoming Upset" portrayed Bonnie at her worst (like an ice cream headache compounded by a broken leg), but at the same time, it reprised the 'false sympathy' trick, complete with crocodile tears. Well, if you felt happy about it, good for you. For me, though, the fact that they made a whole episode focused on Bonnie, showing just one dimension of her, which was none other but the one we always knew, results in an awful episode in my opinion. Specially since, knowing "Bonding", we know that they could have work better with her. An anti-hero, as I understand it, is someone only out for themselves, but their actions to save their own skin end up benefitting the majority. As far as I'm concerned, eliminate everything before 'someone' and after 'themselves' and that describes Bonnie to a T. (I honestly can't think of any examples that bring her anything near this definition.) An anti-hero, in simple definition, is a hero that lacks the typical traits of hero (The ones of Kim, so to speak). In "Cap'n'Drakken", even though against her will, Bonnie assited the group a bit in the fight against the pirates. She didn't do much, really, but that qualifies enough for the concept. Who said anything about logic? I'm talking about common decency. I'm talking about simple, human respect. That's self-contradictory, y'know? You're talking about logical/expectable reactions from people, and for the record, even some of the main characters doesn't make any logic sometimes. It kills me that people fall all over themselves trying to defend (I wish there was another word for it, but if the shoe fits...) Bonnie and her actions. Well, mind you. If you don't like Bonnie, don't like her. But the ones that like her have all the right to defend the character. In another thread, there was a debate about Bonnie being the most realistic character on the show (a point which still gives me the chills). So, in reality, even if someone was better than a particular person and that someone ended up helping that person time and again, the particular person would still be an ingrateful &@%&@$#* about it? What other word is there but 'yikes'? I think Bonnie is a somewhat realistic character (And realistic doesn't mean it has to be gentle). If you disagre, then let's just agree to disagree and leave it like that. And getting back to the whole sister thing, I've felt it to be a rather half-hearted, quick-fix method of character definition (see also: "Hey Arnold!", "Camp Lazlo") and it wasn't until a little movie called The Invisible that I realized just how much. In that movie, this kid named Nick was beaten half to death. The main perpetrator was this bully named Annie (yep, a girl). Later in the film, she's the only one who hears his wandering spirit and there's this rather forced romantic angle, but staying on topic... we see throughout that (faster than you can spell 'plot contrivance') she comes from a broken home...which is perfectly acceptable background for a criminal. Ok, I've never seen "Arnold" so I'm not gonna mind about that. We (by which, I mean everyone but me) can't keep defending nonsense like this forever. Sooner or later, you have to see both sides. I see both sides, and I like the whole as that. If anything, I think it's you who are not willing to see the good side Bonnie's character has, and instead of that just hate her because bad side.
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Post by lonestarr357 on Oct 15, 2007 7:38:04 GMT -5
I see both sides, and I like the whole as that. If anything, I think it's you who are not willing to see the good side Bonnie's character has, and instead of that just hate her because bad side. If a bit of effort had actually been expended in showing a good side as opposed to just foisting a couple of cardboard cutouts disguised as older sisters on us making her look better, I wouldn't end up seeing only that which is there.
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Post by NewSkool101 on Oct 15, 2007 8:00:45 GMT -5
I see both sides, and I like the whole as that. If anything, I think it's you who are not willing to see the good side Bonnie's character has, and instead of that just hate her because bad side. If a bit of effort had actually been expended in showing a good side as opposed to just foisting a couple of cardboard cutouts disguised as older sisters on us making her look better, I wouldn't end up seeing only that which is there. Unfortunately the writers decided not to waste much actual effort on characters who weren't Kim, Ron, Drakken or Shego.
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Post by Alexlayer on Oct 15, 2007 12:46:41 GMT -5
I see both sides, and I like the whole as that. If anything, I think it's you who are not willing to see the good side Bonnie's character has, and instead of that just hate her because bad side. If a bit of effort had actually been expended in showing a good side as opposed to just foisting a couple of cardboard cutouts disguised as older sisters on us making her look better, I wouldn't end up seeing only that which is there. *sigh* What-Ever!!
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Post by Firelady Nemo on Oct 15, 2007 16:56:41 GMT -5
If a bit of effort had actually been expended in showing a good side as opposed to just foisting a couple of cardboard cutouts disguised as older sisters on us making her look better, I wouldn't end up seeing only that which is there. Unfortunately the writers decided not to waste much actual effort on characters who weren't Kim, Ron, Drakken or Shego. well, mabye we'll get to see more... & there's always fanfiction
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