Making Kigo work

[apoptosis]

Between talking/debating with several people about Kigo, and discussing exactly how far the relationship pushes canon, I've found that several people have the opinion that Kigo CAN be done in fanfiction, but it would be a very hard story to execute well.

So, me, being a Kigo author, and wanting to write Kigo well, I ask you:

What would you look for in a fanfiction that would convince you of a Kigo relationship? Not "convince" as in sway you to think Kigo is the best alternate pairing in the KP series, but "convince" as in you reading the fiction and saying, "Okay, while I'm not a Kigo fan, I can see this happening. Yeah, there's a good solid setup for this to occur - I can accept this."

Basically, I'm just wanting input as to what you would want to see in a Kigo fanfic to make it accepable.

And, I guess if you're really bored or have a plethora of extra time on your hands, you could check out my first Kigo piece and see where I could/should improve the setup better: www.fanfiction.net/s/2490191/1/

In the words of our favorite teen hero, please and thank you!

[Nightspade]

Well, it's definitely going to take some sort of MASSIVE change. Something like Ron or Drakken dying/moving away/pursuing other 'interests'. Though that's not the only way, I can see it happening in a similar situation. I've also seen posts that one of the other will have to 'switch sides' so to speak. True, but there's also a gray area in between good and evil. To make it legal (since Shego is in her Twenties) it would have to take place some years after High School. Given the fact that the two are bitter enemies, they can't just fall in love instantly (what person can?). It would have to be over a period of time (Am I stating the obvious?)

Not all of this is required to make Kigo believable to me. Just some. Of course, if it uses good punctuation, has suspense, a well thought out plot, and can hold the attention of my 15 year old mind, I can read just about anything, so my 2 cents are probably more useless then $2 at a gas station.

[surforst]

Lots of booze my friend ;D

If Kim and Shego are not in their rational minds it could happen. Though personally I think Kim would end up chucking Shego through the bar window and hunting down Ron. That's just me though *side note - I detect a story idea here!*

Anyway in an attempt to be serious I'll try to answer this question. One disclaimer though I can personally never see Kigo happening but I'll throw out some ideas anyway.

First off things that have to be in place.

-Kim is in her twenties by this time. This will lessen the age issue.

-Ron is out of the picture for whatever reason.

Now how to hook our two up.

1. Emotional trauma for Kim and Shego. For example loss of Ron and Drakken. This would cause them to seek comfort in each other arms and we'd go into happy Kigo zone there. Not healthy Kigo mind you but then again what Kigo is.

2. Um...mental control chips. Works all the time.

3. Kim experiments in college. Wrong yes but it would give you a Kigo moment. Go with it as you will.


Anyway that's all I got. Still got to say though I'll probably never read a true Kigo story. Just not my thing. Well hope this helps in any small way.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

the initial problem, as I see it, is to break established canon - for example, if Kim were lesbian or at least bi she would have certainly hit on Monique by now - here's her bestest girlfriend right there and she's not making any moves?

as well, Shego's been seen making cute eyes at buffed boys on the beach and not at the waitresses up to this point - so you'd have to move them both away from what's already been established and get them to a center area where it's plausible... like college, as mentioned above.

Ron would have to move out of the picture or at least to the side after returning their relationship to the friendship stage - which, as anyone can tell you, is darned hard in real life and I don't see it being any different in Possible-land. I don't really see a problem with Drakken since he seems to be out of it most of the time anyway as far as Shego's personal life goes - he didn't even know she had brothers!

Kigo CAN be done and done well, but it takes a LOT of work - more than a K/R fic and the writer has to be ready to invest a lot of time and skill into developing two characters away from canon and make them believable.

but it's not impossible.

[zaratan]

Ah, but you're assuming people just know that they are gay or bi. Let me tell you a little tale.

I met a friend in grade 7, when I first moved down to southern Ontario. His name was Chris (not real name), and even at 12, he was a womanizer. He got a girl pregnant by the time he was 13, and had slept with a good portion of the females in the school by the time high school ended. He played sports, went to parties, all that. He was never without a girlfriend for more than 24 hours.

About 3 years ago, we ran into each other, after about 6 months. When I had seen him before, he was happy and he was womanizing. That next time I saw him, he was almost a wreck. Apparantly, he had been outed by a jealous boyfriend. His father had disowned him, his family wanted nothing to do with him. When we got together, we talked.

He didn't even think about guys, not in that way, at least he didn't think he did. So he did what any guy was supposed to do (and girls, if you don't know this by now, this is what almost, not all but almost, every teenage guy wants, so watch out) and that was sleep with lots of girls. Quite often, he didn't even enjoy it, but he never understood why. He could never keep a steady relationship going, because he just never could find that spark. It wasn't until high school ended that he met Mark (again, not real name). They hung out a bit, nothing big, not until the day that Mark kissed him.

Now, right off the bat, he was completely freaked! He took off from there, and basically locked himself in his room for 2 days. He didn't want to enjoy it, but when he thought about it, he realized he had felt that spark, and to him, that was scary. When he finally worked up the courage to talk to Mark again, Mark spent most of the time apologizing. He told me that they talked things out, and while Chris was scared, Mark said he didn't mind taking things slow. It was weeks before they even kissed again, and months before ...... happened. Of course, Chris was still afraid of what others thought, and he kept up the pretense in front of others, which eventually, after 3 years, was what had led to their break-up, and his outing.

There doesn't need to be some earth shaking disaster in one of their lives, or even obvious hints beforehand. The biggest thing when it comes to Kigo is to handle it with class and respect, and not as some horny fanboy trying to get a kick out of it. Anyone can throw them in a bedroom and let them rip their clothes off. Only a real artist can show the real emotion and pain and frustration that a realization like that can bring, and propel them into a true and proper relationship.

On an aside, I usually don't care for Kigo whatsoever myself, but I have absolutely no problem arguing in favour of it as the case requires.

[Levelord]

Dude, I would so FREAk if a guy kissed me. I would lock myself in my room for 200 years trying to figure out what the hell just happened.

[zaratan]

Then you are probably not gay then.

Unless of course, you are just using that response as a defense mechanism to guard against your own internal fears and doubts...

Just messing with you.

[RavenStar]

Kigo can work in fanfiction. However, I do agree a very big situation deeply affecting both women is the most likely situation that would spur them to end up together. However, you could just make it so their fights end up more as playful dances, and then one day they just make out after one of 'em tackles the other.

[fieryfalcon]

I don't like that pairing personally, but the tips on making it work are pretty good. Needs a slow logical buildup and plausible removal of Ron\Drakken. Other things to keep in mind are the legal ramifications (Shego's wanted in twelve countries after all), etc. I have to admit not being particularly well informed about such lifestyles, and many people are not, so one would want to be careful when working out the dynamics. That said, I still can't read this pairing, even when well written. That's just me though.

[cloudmonet]

You know, actually, I knew a woman like that. She was a "manizer"-- had dozens of boyfriends before she was 23, then turned bisexual, then totally lesbian, and never had a good word to say about men after that.

My conclusion-- having a lot of partners could, at least sometimes, be a symptom of not being satisfied with people of that sex.

Neither Kim nor Shego have this intensely wandering an eye, so I don't think this particular model is likely to apply in their case.

Ron, however, does display something like that symptom, or at least would, if he had any real leel of success with the ladies in question. Except for Kim, Yori, and maybe Zita, I don't think he has.

=====

For Apoptosis

Rinacat makes her Kim/Shego shipping work by just slightly altering everything, as if canon isn't quite authentic. This seems to be the attitude adopted by a lot of fanfic (or fancomic) writers. I'd prefer to accept canon, but a lot can change in a few years, if you want it to change.

Okay, so you want to have Kim and Shego be a couple. I'm not going to demand you immediately explain how on earth they got there from where they are near the end of "So the Drama." But let's find a plausible reality.

What? They have an apartment together in Greenwhich Village, a house on Long Island, they're attempting to rebuild New Orleans? How old are they? What are they doing with their lives?

----------

Kim is a disillusioned Global Justice cop. Shego's on parole, got a reduced sentence for ratting on Drakken and Monkey Fist. Hit men are tracking Shego down. Kim saves her life. They talk. Ron's turned into a real butthead, an ultra zealous Dirty Harry cop, totally lost his sense of humor. Kim broke off the engagement. Shego takes Kim to the lesbian coffeehouse where she's been hiding from the hit men. Watching the girls cozing up with each other in the corner gets them curious...

----------

Hey, that's not half bad! I think it can be done. You can use that plot (or any modification) if you want it. It really is all about finding a possible space for their lives to come together. Me, I want Kim and Ron to stay together, so I'm not gonna use it myself.

The place I have Kim and Ron in my own stories, engaged, sophomores in a state university far from Middleton, roommates with Monique and Felix in a coed dorm, may not be a particularly unusual vision, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about when and how they got engaged, how they got accepted by the college they're in, or why Wade bought them their own jet.

You just need something that makes sense, and could happen somehow in the time elapsed between canon and your story.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

actually, and I'm being 'orribly honest, in all the fandoms that I've written and read I've come to a new respect for those who CAN write slash - it's hard to divert characters from canon and do it *well* and maintain the characters as what you see on the screen, not just blank slates who happen to have the same names as those in the show. It's not for the faint of heart and certainly not for those who feel that they can just slap two characters together without a backstory and fall back on hot sex to make it popular with the readers. Well, most times, anyway.

it's much harder to write than the usual pairings and for that I do respect those who can do it *well*...

and darn it, smut of all types is just... fun!

[RavenStar]

aers said:

actually, and I'm being 'orribly honest, in all the fandoms that I've written and read I've come to a new respect for those who CAN write slash - it's hard to divert characters from canon and do it *well* and maintain the characters as what you see on the screen, not just blank slates who happen to have the same names as those in the show. It's not for the faint of heart and certainly not for those who feel that they can just slap two characters together without a backstory and fall back on hot sex to make it popular with the readers. Well, most times, anyway.

it's much harder to write than the usual pairings and for that I do respect those who can do it *well*...

and darn it, smut of all types is just... fun!

Quoted for truth.

[Prof. Demizle]

I recommend no dead pan exposition and no changes in point of view.

If you try third person you better write well, creating good descriptions of the surroundings and what the characters are doing.

If you try first person you better write well and create believable thoughts for the characters.

For god's sake people change dialogue around for my sake please! Apoptosis I'm going to use some of your work as an example ok? Good.

Take this line

“Ron…Ron’s not…he’s not an idiot…” Kim was able to blurt out, her shallow breathing obviously a problem.

Not the greatest but not too bad either. The real problem is there are about 200 lines in the fanfic just like it, fallowed by an interruption describe the other character's reaction.

Gently taking Kim’s head in her hands, Shego sat down beside Kim and started stroking the teen heroine’s blood-soaked hair as she continued to talk.

See?

Now I guess I've been too influenced by the books I've read in my AP English class. Books by Authors who are noted as some of the best of all time. So I normally don't read fanfics but when I do I normally can't stand it. Especially Kigo because allot of the time it's just a guy writing out his lesbian fantasy of two interacting cartoon characters.

Now I'll shut up because I've never tried writing my own story though I am an accomplished writer of satire, sarcasm, and criticisms. Acording to my school newspaper that is.

[Lord FunkyHoof]

To begin, I don't see Kigo as fapping material, at first I didn't even know what the word "Kigo" meant! Anyway, I just see the pairing just as a relationship between two people, and that's how it should be done. There has to be basically something leading up to them getting together, did this take place later on? How did it happen? Is anybody out of the picture? How long did it take for them to realize they had a small liking for eachother? How did that expand?

It's all gotta be told realistically and emotionally, and angst if you want some. Then from there, you have to know what kind of relationship they have. From my point of view, judging by their characters and personalities in the show, I'd say that Shego wouldn't be one to show her true feelings all the time and probably be hard headed at times, but still has affections and love Kim. With Kim she'd might show her emotions more, maybe be shy about it, dragging Shego around shopping against her will. But who knows, I could be wrong! The point is what kind of relationship are they having? And what role do each of them play in it?

Above all, it just has to be realistic, a reader has to be able to see it, read it, absorb it and say "I can see this happening." to themselves. That's just what you have to accomplish.

[apoptosis]

aers said:

the initial problem, as I see it, is to break established canon - for example, if Kim were lesbian or at least bi she would have certainly hit on Monique by now - here's her bestest girlfriend right there and she's not making any moves?

Just curious though; isn't it possible to have good friends that are just that - good friends? Even straight girls probably have guyfriends who they are pretty close with, but have no romantic interest in? Granted, I don't have a ton of experience dating, but does this ever happen? If so, could that possibly be the case with Monique?

And I just can't see Kim ever making a move on Bonnie. *shrug* I guess I see the Kim versus Shego dynamic as more an obligation on both sides due to their jobs, and Kim versus Bonnie as voluntary mocking and animosity from Bonnie, due to jealousy. But, then again, maybe that's just me.

Ron would have to move out of the picture or at least to the side after returning their relationship to the friendship stage - which, as anyone can tell you, is darned hard in real life and I don't see it being any different in Possible-land. I don't really see a problem with Drakken since he seems to be out of it most of the time anyway as far as Shego's personal life goes - he didn't even know she had brothers!

Ahh, very good point about Drakken there! And yes, I think that moving from dating back to friendship is probably very hard, and not to mention awkward...but if friends are good friends, couldn't they still work it out? Or, once you start dating someone, all past bets are off? (again, my lack of dating is showing here, lol)

Thanks for your input! *thumbs up emoticon*

[apoptosis]

zaratan said:

Ah, but you're assuming people just know that they are gay or bi. Let me tell you a little tale.

I met a friend in grade 7, when I first moved down to southern Ontario. His name was Chris (not real name), and even at 12, he was a womanizer. He got a girl pregnant by the time he was 13, and had slept with a good portion of the females in the school by the time high school ended. He played sports, went to parties, all that. He was never without a girlfriend for more than 24 hours.

About 3 years ago, we ran into each other, after about 6 months. When I had seen him before, he was happy and he was womanizing. That next time I saw him, he was almost a wreck. Apparantly, he had been outed by a jealous boyfriend. His father had disowned him, his family wanted nothing to do with him. When we got together, we talked.

He didn't even think about guys, not in that way, at least he didn't think he did. So he did what any guy was supposed to do (and girls, if you don't know this by now, this is what almost, not all but almost, every teenage guy wants, so watch out) and that was sleep with lots of girls. Quite often, he didn't even enjoy it, but he never understood why. He could never keep a steady relationship going, because he just never could find that spark. It wasn't until high school ended that he met Mark (again, not real name). They hung out a bit, nothing big, not until the day that Mark kissed him.

Now, right off the bat, he was completely freaked! He took off from there, and basically locked himself in his room for 2 days. He didn't want to enjoy it, but when he thought about it, he realized he had felt that spark, and to him, that was scary. When he finally worked up the courage to talk to Mark again, Mark spent most of the time apologizing. He told me that they talked things out, and while Chris was scared, Mark said he didn't mind taking things slow. It was weeks before they even kissed again, and months before ...... happened. Of course, Chris was still afraid of what others thought, and he kept up the pretense in front of others, which eventually, after 3 years, was what had led to their break-up, and his outing.

Apologies and sympathy to your friend for going through all of that, even if he WAS a womanizer early in his life. No one should have to go through all those changes alone and afraid. I know when I came out of the closet, I was truly afraid of getting rejected, and when I first was attracted to girls, I was very confused. So, I understand how trying an experience it can be.

There doesn't need to be some earth shaking disaster in one of their lives, or even obvious hints beforehand. The biggest thing when it comes to Kigo is to handle it with class and respect, and not as some horny fanboy trying to get a kick out of it. Anyone can throw them in a bedroom and let them rip their clothes off. Only a real artist can show the real emotion and pain and frustration that a realization like that can bring, and propel them into a true and proper relationship.

Wow, now, that is some very nice and wicked logical advice there! Thank you!

[apoptosis]

cloudmonet said:

Rinacat makes her Kim/Shego shipping work by just slightly altering everything, as if canon isn't quite authentic. This seems to be the attitude adopted by a lot of fanfic (or fancomic) writers.

I'm sorry; I don't understand what you mean when you say that canon isn't quite authentic. I'm assuming not totally ignoring canon - oh, do you mean that it is like she takes canon with a grain of salt? As in, here's what's canon, okay, but I'm not going to make this big deal about it? I think?

Kim is a disillusioned Global Justice cop. Shego's on parole, got a reduced sentence for ratting on Drakken and Monkey Fist. Hit men are tracking Shego down. Kim saves her life. They talk. Ron's turned into a real butthead, an ultra zealous Dirty Harry cop, totally lost his sense of humor. Kim broke off the engagement. Shego takes Kim to the lesbian coffeehouse where she's been hiding from the hit men. Watching the girls cozing up with each other in the corner gets them curious...

----------

Hey, that's not half bad! I think it can be done. You can use that plot (or any modification) if you want it. It really is all about finding a possible space for their lives to come together.

I agree; that's actually an idea with a lot of potential. I think after I finish my current piece, I'll try that! Thanks so much for suggesting and giving permission!

I'm really excited about this idea now!

[apoptosis]

aers said:

and darn it, smut of all types is just... fun!

Amen to that!

[zaratan]

Just curious though; isn't it possible to have good friends that are just that - good friends? Even straight girls probably have guyfriends who they are pretty close with, but have no romantic interest in? Granted, I don't have a ton of experience dating, but does this ever happen? If so, could that possibly be the case with Monique?

Exactly! Just because someone is inclined a certain way, doesn't automatically preclude romantic or sexual intentions. I mean, several of my best friends are women, even roomed with one of them in college. And not every woman is going to turn on a woman inclined that way. So it's easy to believe that if Kim was inclined that way, that maybe Monique just doesn't do it for her while Shego would.

Still don't like most Kigo, but I sure seem to like arguing in favour, don't I?

[apoptosis]

drdementor said:

I recommend no dead pan exposition and no changes in point of view.

Just for my own clarification, by dead pan exposition, do you mean unemotional descriptions of backgrounds, settings, and other similar information?

And why no changes in POV? I know that sometimes, a sudden varying POV can disrupt the flow of the storyline, but if done in a manner that doesn't disrupt the story, I think that seeing an event from the opposite POVs of two opposing characters (especially characters like Kim and Shego who are complete foils of each other) can be interesting to read, as well as provide dramatic irony, as the readers become aware of the "bigger picture" when the characters themselves are not.

I think the ability to witness characters' innermost thoughts is a very powerful literary device, and POV changes are necessary if the reader is seeing the internal thoughts from several characters (about the same event or not). POV change in the middle of a scene is confusing, but if a POV change occurs between two very distinct scenes, I think it is acceptable. Personally, I'm very interested in how one event can be perceived in different ways by different characters, depending on their personalities and experiences. To convey the different perceptions, in different scenes of course, POV changes are absolutely necessary, IMO.

For god's sake people change dialogue around for my sake please! Apoptosis I'm going to use some of your work as an example ok? Good.

Take this line

“Ron…Ron’s not…he’s not an idiot…” Kim was able to blurt out, her shallow breathing obviously a problem.

Not the greatest but not too bad either. The real problem is there are about 200 lines in the fanfic just like it, fallowed by an interruption describe the other character's reaction.

Gently taking Kim’s head in her hands, Shego sat down beside Kim and started stroking the teen heroine’s blood-soaked hair as she continued to talk.

See?

So, you mean the pacing between bouts of dialogue and description of scene/action sequences/etc? Saying that my general layout is mostly static throughout the story, as:

Dialogue
Small interruption for other character's reaction to dialogue
Dialogue
Small interruption for other character's reaction to dialogue
And so on?

Perhaps, just mix up the two devices more?

Long section of dialogue
Long descriptions
Short dialogue
Long descriptions
Moderate dialogue
Short descriptions

Something like that?

I think a reason why I keep interspacing small amounts of dialogue with characters' reactions is because I can't imagine a character saying something, and the other character not reacting at all. Dialogue can convey emotions and reactions, but sometimes I think a little extra description is needed - if a character is outraged by a comment, does he clench his teeth, or bite his lip, or roll his eyes, throw up his hands in exasperation, turn around so that he doesn't have to face the other character, and etc? I think these small physical reactions aren't immediately apparent if not inserted as description.

Now I guess I've been too influenced by the books I've read in my AP English class. Books by Authors who are noted as some of the best of all time.

Ahh, AP English, I remember that! I loved that class - my favorites were Handmaid's Tale, Animal Dreams, The Things They Carried, Picture of Dorian Grey, 1984, Brave New World, and Jane Eyre. And I will always remember Slaughterhouse Five - jumping from character to character, and time zone to time zone - it was particularly mind-boggling. Fabulously brilliant, and totally mind-boggling. What pieces are you reading? I hope some of the same; they are really good reads! And Atonement is fabulous as well. I didn't read it in high school, but I discovered it over the summer, and it is truly another great work.

Thanks for the comment; I'm really glad that you're lending your critical eye.