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Post by RavenStar on Jan 17, 2006 3:18:37 GMT -5
All of that said, I commend Allaine, Apoptosis, and RavenStar. Even if I don't find the KIGO premise plausible, they bring a lively, high-quality level of writing to the fan fic world and we could use more of that, regardless of the pairings (okay, I really don't need to see any Kim/Prince Wally stories).  Uh...thanks! |
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Post by Aers (That Writer Chick) on Jan 17, 2006 9:45:35 GMT -5
perhaps the question should shift, then, to how do you *not* make Kigo work?
without giving examples, what are some of the problems that you have when trying to make Kigo work in a realistic context?
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Post by allaine on Jan 17, 2006 12:01:24 GMT -5
There are some people who've told me they think I have some kind of bias against Ron, because of my stories. There's a period where his role tends to be overshadowed by Shego's, because I felt more comfortable in the beginning writing her than him (his brand of comic dialogue is NOT the easiest thing to replicate), and because the female characters in my fics tend to get more screen time.
But I honestly have nothing against him. I think he makes a great best friend for her, and I wouldn't dream of seeing the two grow apart.
Unless you subscribe to Billy Crystal's "When Harry Met Sally" theory that men and women can't be JUST platonic friends, however, that doesn't automatically make them future sweethearts. Or soulmates. Or married for life. If it DID, then I think divorce rates would be a lot lower in this country if everyone just decided to pursue their best friends romantically.
From another angle, I think my Kigo preferences were partly influenced by its popularity (or lack thereof) when I entered the fandom. I remember when the KP section at FFN was a whopping 400 stories (I believe it's 2,300+ now), and there was SO much K/R then. It was such an easy pairing to write. It seemed so obvious. The male and female best friend stars of the show. Of COURSE they're going to get together! (Not saying this is an erroneous assumption here.)
And Kigo, well, there was GlitteryDoom, there was Joltz, there were, what, seven stories?
I guess what I mean to say is that - personally - I felt oversaturated by the K/R stories, and it felt stale. And there was this very muted, quiet following for a pairing that I immediately took to. It felt more fun writing Kigo. K/R, oh yeah, everyone's been there, done that.
Kim and Ron, yes, they do complement each other. I just think that Ron and Shego complement Kim in different ways. Ron is a hero in all the ways Kim isn't, it seems. He's the Type B personality to her Type A. If you put Ron and Kim together, you might very well get the perfect superhero. Shego is a villain for the exact same reasons Kim is a hero. What differentiates them is their motivations, their emotions. Shego is the yang to her yin, the dark to her light. Put them together and you might get - the perfect human? Could it be that while Ron loosens up and humanizes Kim the perfectionist superachiever, Shego could be someone that allows Kim to be more than the sterotypical dogooder in tights?
As for why Kigo stories tend to have Shego going good, as opposed to Kim going bad, I can't tell you why other people do it. (Although lately this appears to be something people are willing to explore more.) Why I did it - well, ironically, because of characters like Ron. For Kim to go "bad", I think it would isolate her and forever change the dynamic with her closest friends and family - Ron, Monique, her parents, the tweebs, Wade, etc. They'd still BE there, but it wouldn't be the same for me. She'd be fighting and arguing with them, not what we see now.
For Shego to go "good" - what, she stops taking checks from Drakken?
Basically, a story with Kim and Shego as a criminal pair becomes a darker story with reduced roles for many of the characters that add color to the series. I don't want to write a Kigo story. I want to write a Kim Possible story with Kigo in it.
(Besides, I don't think Shego has to become THAT good to switch sides. She can still be naughty, bitchy, snarky and greedy without being a villain. One example that comes to mind is BlackArachnia from Beast Wars. She didn't switch sides because she wanted to be a Maximal. She switched sides but remained a Predacon, mainly because she thought Megatron had completely lost his mind. And because of those feelings for Silverbolt she didn't really want to admit to.
I think it would take a more drastic personality shift for Kim to become a villain.)
Sincerely, Allaine
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Post by clayton on Jan 18, 2006 15:47:41 GMT -5
Kigo works way better than the idea of Kim and Ron dating for more than a month.
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Post by Nightspade on Jan 18, 2006 15:51:35 GMT -5
Clayton, that's not the way that most of the residents of this board feel.
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Post by clayton on Jan 18, 2006 16:00:55 GMT -5
I know, but oddly nobody who supports the K/R relationship ever seems to have any rock solid reasons why on this planet they would end up together. Honestly, outside of basic friendship they aren't remotely compatable.  |
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Post by Nightspade on Jan 18, 2006 16:04:56 GMT -5
Opposites attract.
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Post by MrDrP on Jan 18, 2006 16:22:33 GMT -5
Allaine makes a number of interesting points; here are my thoughts, which lay out some of the reasons I think a KIGO fiction ultimately can't work.
(this is an aside, but one I want to address.) Harry and Sally/best friends: A fair point -- with a caveat. Harry and Sally didn't spend a couple of years fighting evil (which includes Shego) and dodging death together after already having been friends for more than a decade. Kim and Ron bring a lot more to a romantic relationship than most other platonic best friends do (I went into this in an earlier post, I believe). Mind you, I have no clue as to how long they'll actually date in season 4. But as a hypotheical, I'd give them mcuh better odds than most teen age couples to go the distance. There's a strong, shared foundation to build on, unlike, say the Kim/Shego one where they actually have little in common (other than fighting with each other and a shared interest in a green club banana jacket and, I suspect, a certain contempt for Drakken).
Kim/Shego, Yin/Yang. I don't think Kim and Shego are yin and yang at all. That's Kim and Ron. Ron is the one who makes Kim complete, and vice versa. Ron not only humanizes Kim, but also helps her be more than the "do-gooder in tights." Shego, I suspect, would only bring out darker elements of Kim's personality as she tried to manipulate the younger woman.
Shego going good/Kim going bad dynamic for stories. It seems, ultimately, Shego is going good, rather than Kim going bad, for ease of story-telling ie. authors don't want to give up characters. Yet, I suspect if Shego stayed in character and Kim hooked up with her, there'd be fallout with family and friends. But why not? If Kim loves Shego, she should would be willing to give those things up, even her hero rep. KIGO seems to require an unjustifiable change in either Shego or Kim's personality. In short, one of them has to stop being herself for this to work.
Shego has to give up alot more than checks from Drakken to go good. She has to undergo a radical personality change. This is the person who has said in blunt terms that she likes being evil and who has tried to kill Kim. It's not just the paycheck. Shego's a bad lady who has attempted murder and has never shown remorse for her actions.
Kim may not date Ron for more than two episodes, but there is no canonical evidence, nor anything to build on from any of the episdoes, that let's me see Kim "liking" girls or Shego reforming herself (not to mention "liking" girls). I guess for this KP fan, you can't write a true Kim Possible story with KIGO in it because, at the end of the day, the premise is fundamentally implausible. If Kim or Shego has to stop being herself, then it's really not Kim or Shego, and thus not Kim Possible, no matter how solid the writing or well-plotted the story.
Anyhoo, I'm just glad we can all agree to disagree and still be polite to each other.
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Post by MrDrP on Jan 18, 2006 16:32:44 GMT -5
I know, but oddly nobody who supports the K/R relationship ever seems to have any rock solid reasons why on this planet they would end up together. Honestly, outside of basic friendship they aren't remotely compatable. Well, let's see, other than canon, which has now put them together, let's see. First, basic friendship is the prerequisite for a solid relationship. Second, they enjoy each others' company tremendously. Third, they enjoy a lot of common interests ranging from freak fighting to travel to watching TV to ... I can go on for a while here, but won't. Fourth, they are actually quite compatible. They balance each other out and put up with one anothers' quirks and faults. This is important. I know from personal experience; if it weren't true, I wouldn't still be married. Sure, Ron may appear to be a slacker ... but he has been running around the world with Kim for how many years now? And Kim may seem to want a hottie, but it's interesting that she hates when Ron changes, and when she finally falls for him, its for plain old Ron Stoppable, not Ron the Man or Ron Millionaire. And Kim may be tightly wound and pushy and able to go into the field without Ron ... but she doesn't want to. Maybe Ron would like someon like Yori who is polite and almost worshipful. But it's interesting that the girl he ulimtately wants to be with is the one who's Type A and isn't going to cut him slack. These two see things in the other that they need to be their better selves. Is any of this a guarantee that Kim and Ron will be married for fifty years or even date for more than an episode or two? Nope. But don't write off the relationship. They elements of success are there and these two have spent the better part of season 3 grappling with the idea. |
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Post by clayton on Jan 18, 2006 17:24:01 GMT -5
I know, but oddly nobody who supports the K/R relationship ever seems to have any rock solid reasons why on this planet they would end up together. Honestly, outside of basic friendship they aren't remotely compatable. Well, let's see, other than canon, which has now put them together, let's see. First, basic friendship is the prerequisite for a solid relationship. Second, they enjoy each others' company tremendously. Third, they enjoy a lot of common interests ranging from freak fighting to travel to watching TV to ... I can go on for a while here, but won't. Fourth, they are actually quite compatible. They balance each other out and put up with one anothers' quirks and faults. This is important. I know from personal experience; if it weren't true, I wouldn't still be married. Sure, Ron may appear to be a slacker ... but he has been running around the world with Kim for how many years now? And Kim may seem to want a hottie, but it's interesting that she hates when Ron changes, and when she finally falls for him, its for plain old Ron Stoppable, not Ron the Man or Ron Millionaire. And Kim may be tightly wound and pushy and able to go into the field without Ron ... but she doesn't want to. Maybe Ron would like someon like Yori who is polite and almost worshipful. But it's interesting that the girl he ulimtately wants to be with is the one who's Type A and isn't going to cut him slack. These two see things in the other that they need to be their better selves. Is any of this a guarantee that Kim and Ron will be married for fifty years or even date for more than an episode or two? Nope. But don't write off the relationship. They elements of success are there and these two have spent the better part of season 3 grappling with the idea. Actually on is an admitted Slacker. Can you honestly see those two dating for more than a week? They know everything about each other and do everythign together... so what's there to talk about? On top of that Kim knows all the things Ron does from keeping hairless rodent in his pants to every bonehead mistake and ego trip that he's been on. But if you want to do it your way, Kim and Shego have a ton in common too. They work closely together. Shego, when not being ordered to attack, honestly never seems to have a problem with Kim. In fact on her vacation she was reading Kimstyle magazine. Shego constantly calls Kim by pet names. Shego has taken Kim's fashion advice. "Green is the new black". Kim actually admitted to liking "bad boys" and said "boys" a little shakily. They've teamed up several times and their martial arts style is almost identical (minus the glowing green hand thing of course). Shego can blast through three foot thick vaults, but can't seem to hurt Kim at all. Technically Shego didn't give her brother's powers back to them... she gave the scepter to Kim. They both share similar interests in clothes. Really, if she weren't on Drakken's payroll and was workign with Kim, how would you rate Ron's chances in comparison? If Shego were a guy I somehow doubt so many people would be arguing the point. |
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Post by Nightspade on Jan 18, 2006 17:43:03 GMT -5
As far as clothes go, they both just want to stay trendy.
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Post by MrDrP on Jan 18, 2006 18:37:06 GMT -5
Well, let's see, other than canon, which has now put them together, let's see. First, basic friendship is the prerequisite for a solid relationship. Second, they enjoy each others' company tremendously. Third, they enjoy a lot of common interests ranging from freak fighting to travel to watching TV to ... I can go on for a while here, but won't. Fourth, they are actually quite compatible. They balance each other out and put up with one anothers' quirks and faults. This is important. I know from personal experience; if it weren't true, I wouldn't still be married. Sure, Ron may appear to be a slacker ... but he has been running around the world with Kim for how many years now? And Kim may seem to want a hottie, but it's interesting that she hates when Ron changes, and when she finally falls for him, its for plain old Ron Stoppable, not Ron the Man or Ron Millionaire. And Kim may be tightly wound and pushy and able to go into the field without Ron ... but she doesn't want to. Maybe Ron would like someon like Yori who is polite and almost worshipful. But it's interesting that the girl he ulimtately wants to be with is the one who's Type A and isn't going to cut him slack. These two see things in the other that they need to be their better selves. Is any of this a guarantee that Kim and Ron will be married for fifty years or even date for more than an episode or two? Nope. But don't write off the relationship. They elements of success are there and these two have spent the better part of season 3 grappling with the idea. Ron may be an admitted slacker, but it still doesn't change what I've written about him. Yes, I can see those two dating for more than a week. My wife and I know everything about each other and for a long stretch of our relationship (the part from when we first met to after our engagement) we did everything together - work, play, etc. There was still lots to talk about. Even when there was nothing to talk about. It happens when you're in love. Yes, Kim knows those things about Ron and, guess what, she still likes being with him. Guess she's not as shallow as some people have suggested. And Ron puts up with a lot from Kim, too -- her temper, her bossiness for starters. Gee. Sounds like two people who actuallyc are about one another. Shego sure seems to dislike Kim every time they encounter one another. As for the magazine? More likely that she's reading up on her foe -- Know Your Enemy. They only work closely together when their mutual survival requires it. Pet names? How about terms of derision. And Kim never calls Shego anything other than Shego. Actually, Shego made derisive comments about Kim's fashion sense in that episode, ridiculing Kim's fleece. ("And this advice comes to us from a fashion-don't in fleece!" Shego says, followed by "It's gonna blow the pipeline, Kimmy, and you're skin definitely doesn't need more oil." I can feel the love there.) Something tells me Shego was wearing green long before it became hip. Bad boys. Here's the actual dialog: Ron: So, you like the bad boys? Kim: Well sometimes I…[Kim’s dad walks by]… no, not at all, but some girls do. Kim's never says "boys" so her voice can't be shaky, which means your point is moot. Now, maybe Kim likes bad boys. And this proves she has something in common with Shego, how? Danny in Agony County is a far cry from Drakken -- or Shego. Team up. See above. Martial arts styles are similar. Okay, great I'll spot you that. Enough to build a relationship on? Nuh uh. The vault thing. Are you saying Shego doesn't want to hurt Kim? Then why did she try to kill her at Granny Crockett's? Or feed her to the gators in Everglades? The vault thing is explained by the KP universe's strange laws of physics, not Shego's affection for KP. Powers. Shego gave the scepter to Kim to cover up for her unaccustomed good deed on behalf of her brothers. Shego cares about her evil rep. The fact that she was embarrassed by what she did was evident by how she slammed Drakken afterwards. Similar interest in clothes. Yes, they like wearing them. I don't get the impression that Shego actually likes to shop, which Kim clearly enjoys. Further, Kim and Shego dress quite differently, that club banana jacket aside. I can't see Shego wearing capris ... The question about Shego working with Kim and what that would mean for Ron's chances be is pointless -- it has nothing to do with the KP universe that actually exists. The fact is Kim works with Ron -- that's a huge part of what makes them tight -- and they fight Shego. Sure, if Kim didn't work with Ron and never really got to know him, then things might be different; who knows, Kim might be nothing but a shallow cheerleader. The fact is, you many not like Ron, but Kim does. And as Kim says in The Ron Factor "I wouldn't go freak fighting without him." Shego's being a woman is irrelevant to my arguing this point of Shego v. Ron. I for one would still feel this way if Shego were a guy who appeared out of the blue. We've actually been there: it's called Erik. And we really saw Kim at her finest there, didn't we? Ignore your loyal friend who's risked his life for you for some crush who happens to be better looking and, possibly, smarter. A great message to send to kids, by the way. Friendship, compatibility, loyalty? Nah, those don't matter in a relationship. Fortunately for Kim, when the chips were down, she turned to the one person she knew she could count on -- Ron. And when all was lost, he was there for her. Yeah, I'm Kim I'd definitely want to walk away from that kind of guy. Sorry, but I give our Kimmie a little more credit. She knew what she was doing when she took Ron's hand and led him to the prom. Finally, I can't speak for others, but my issue isn't with same-sex pairings. It's with this one (Shego/Kim) in particular. There's no basis for it and no way for it to work. Kim and Ron may break up, but at least they're together, per canon. There is no evidence of interest on Shego's part towards Kim, nor is there is any evidence of any interest on Kim's part towards Shego (and please don't cite the picture in her locker; by that argument, she also wants to do something nasty with Drakken behind bars). Even if one were to accept all of your points as valid, which I don't, the best youcould, assuming you want to somehow, some way bring Shego and Kim together and stay true to the characters, is have Shego abduct Kim, use her, and leave her to suffer afterwards. That may seem harsh, but there it is. Shego is a mercenary predator, not some secret romantic longing to kiss her enemy. Anyway, that's all I have to say. We're obviously not going to agree on this or change one another's minds on the matter. |
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Post by Aers (That Writer Chick) on Jan 18, 2006 19:08:56 GMT -5
I always find it interesting that some people figure that in order to validate one pairing, another one must be trashed. there's no reason why you can't like/respect Kigo and like/respect Kim/Ron and vice versa. No reason in the world. It's not like there's going to be a test at the end of your life and if you claim to like one over the other you'll be heading for Hell. I think. if you don't like it, then don't read/write/review it. If you don't believe in K/R, then don't worry your little head about the shippers and keep on reading/writing Kigo in good health. there's enough room in this fandom for all pairings to receive their due - I'm still bucking for that Ned/Drakken slash, myself. you *know* you want to read it...  |
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Post by zaratan on Jan 18, 2006 20:24:46 GMT -5
Don't tempt him... seriously! He's already given us Kim/Ned, we really don't need to see Ned/Drakken! Or... do we...
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Post by dragoonbigl on Jan 18, 2006 20:36:31 GMT -5
Doesn't alot of this argument really stem from what everyone is looking for in/defines a relationship by?
My oppinion Kim and Ron have everything a good romantic relationship should have, they can go the distance because of all the counter points I've read.
They know and ACCEPT each others quirks and bad points. I was once told and I totally believe this, "Don't marry the person you love, learn to love the person you marry."
Kim and Ron have already learned to, and do, love each other.
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Post by MrDrP on Jan 18, 2006 21:06:36 GMT -5
Don't tempt him... seriously! He's already given us Kim/Ned, we really don't need to see Ned/Drakken! Or... do we... Ned/Drakken. The most highly incompetent, annoying couple ever! I will write KIGO long before I write N/D -- at least I know there'd be an audience! Besides, I think Aers owns the N/D idea, lock, stock, and barrel ... |
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Jan 18, 2006 21:07:52 GMT -5
I know, but oddly nobody who supports the K/R relationship ever seems to have any rock solid reasons why on this planet they would end up together. Honestly, outside of basic friendship they aren't remotely compatable. I suppose it all depends on what you mean by "compatible". The "rock solid reasons" are that they have enough compatibility to be able to enjoy one another's company. Enough activities are shared that one may reasonably deduce that they have some similar interests besides fighting evil (which is mostly what we see them do, but I think it is safe to assume they share more than that and Bueno Nacho.) And great relationships are based on friendships. Guess everyone has said that or something similar. I hate to reiterate everything, but I will say my piece that there are several approaches to doing Kigo. I don't read slash myself, but I will give my input: You must give both some signs of lesbian tendencies, whether real or simply "experimental". These can be sudden in coming as well as slow (as has been discussed, sparks can fly without warning) but it still must be realistic. I think another point to making Kigo work is the reactions of everyone else. Kim and Shego will not be the only ones affected by the relationship. It's insane to think no one else will have some opinion. |
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Post by surforst on Jan 18, 2006 21:17:25 GMT -5
there's no reason why you can't like/respect Kigo and like/respect Kim/Ron and vice versa. No reason in the world. It's not like there's going to be a test at the end of your life and if you claim to like one over the other you'll be heading for Hell. I think. Um...yeah there no test like that. None at all. Surforst wouldn't lie about the fact that it's written in the bible if you use the 'Surforst' method which involves taking random letters and placing them together. No not at all.  Yes because Kim and Ron have never hanged out with each other as a matter of choice. In fact Ron spent most of the series trying to kill Kim...wait that was Shego. My bad! I think MrDrP sums it up perfectly. Last I checked most married couple know each other pretty well. My folks for example tend to do pretty much everything together and they've been married for a long time. Before I was born in fact! When you begin to date Clayton you'll find the best relationships are ones where you can actually be friends with the gal/guy who you are seeing. If you couldn't hang out with them as a friend then the relationship is only about one thing. We see this that Kim and Ron easily hang out with each other and they also perfectly complement the other. Kim goes crazy without Ron and Ron would probably sit on his couch all day without Kim. There a reason why they work well. As for Kigo I've said it before and I'll say it again. Surforst said it doesn't work and that's good enough for me. Reasons why I just don't see this working. 1. Age - It's a big difference at this current time. I'm younger then Shego is and I'm telling you Kim would be way too immature for me to date at all. She's in High School for Christ sake while Shego would probably be a graduate from College. One is an adult while the other is a child (who thinks she's an adult) which makes a big difference. I'm not talking ethics here I'm talking maturity. Shego would get annoyed real quick with the way Kim acts and in the end the relationship would only be physical. You can't convince me otherwise on this topic. 2. Evil! - Kim is a goody two shoes. Shego a woman who is willing to kill not just evil. She's tried to kill Kim on numerous occasions and you just can't get along with a person like that. Radical changes would have to happen and then they wouldn't be Kim and Shego. Just doesn't work. In the end I agree with MrDrP and the other K/R shippers on this. For as much as I liked to see Ron/Bon I'm willing to admit that Kim and Ron are made for each other. It's a good thing just accept it. |
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Post by Scoutcraft Piratess on Jan 18, 2006 21:22:42 GMT -5
As for Kigo I've said it before and I'll say it again. Surforst said it doesn't work and that's good enough for me. Reasons why I just don't see this working. 1. Age - It's a big difference at this current time. I'm younger then Shego is and I'm telling you Kim would be way too immature for me to date at all. She's in High School for Christ sake while Shego would probably be a graduate from College. One is an adult while the other is a child (who thinks she's an adult) which makes a big difference. I'm not talking ethics here I'm talking maturity. Shego would get annoyed real quick with the way Kim acts and in the end the relationship would only be physical. You can't convince me otherwise on this topic. 2. Evil! - Kim is a goody two shoes. Shego a woman who is willing to kill not just evil. She's tried to kill Kim on numerous occasions and you just can't get along with a person like that. Radical changes would have to happen and then they wouldn't be Kim and Shego. Just doesn't work. And yet "forbidden attraction" happens all the time. It's called hormones. And often, for lots of odd pairings, it's the sheer quirkiness of it than get to me. It may not necessarily be the most realistic, but it is believable as far the fic's current mindset is concerned. I still don't like Kigo or any slash, but I still must play devil's advocate.  I honestly can see where Kigo shippers see attraction. I happen to believe that both Kim and Shego are completely straight, but I can understand where the others are coming from. It's freakin' obvious! They have a naturally progressed romance based on a solid friendship and plenty of trust. |
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Post by surforst on Jan 19, 2006 2:21:00 GMT -5
Well I was discussing this topic with a few people and someone reminded me of a certain fact. Number one reason why Kigo will never work is because of just one man. Who is this person you ask? Is it Ron? No my friend not this time. Our mystery person is the great Mr. Dr. P himself.
Now we all know Mr. Dr. P is a crazy ex-villain who has been pushing Kim and Ron together. Now just imagine his shock when his daughter comes home one day and says she's not in love with Ron but in fact in love with one of her foes. What would Mr. Dr. P do then.
I've wondered this myself and it came to me. He'd simply abduct Shego and torture her to death. No rape mind you after all Mr. P has standards but he would make her suffer before she died. Why? Heck if I can understand his motives he just gets annoyed sometimes.
After this is all done he'd then take care of whatever girl Ron was seeing. Would he need to kill her though? Probably not but I think he'd do it anyway. Then he'd push the two kids together using a few instructions placed into Kim head when she was younger through intense training. Have her seduce Ron and all that good stuff and think she actually wants to. Will it be the right thing to do? No but Mr. P doesn't care about that. After all he is evil.
So for all you Kigo fans out there just consider that. It's impossible by cannon rules. Sorry. ;D
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I honestly can see where Kigo shippers see attraction. I happen to believe that both Kim and Shego are completely straight, but I can understand where the others are coming from.