Making Kigo work

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

hey, a good writer can make ANY pairing work...

I've seen some pairings in some fandoms that would give anyone serious pause for thoughts... but if they're done well they'll find an audience!

as far as canon goes... I've always restricted myself to writing stories that I perceive to be possible episodes, from my XF days to now - to me canon is basically creating a story that could, in a perfect world, be scripted and filmed tomorrow and no one would be the wiser about it being fan-written.

*but* there's no rules that say that as there are no rules about what has to be written - if you want to do Kigo, go ahead and let the Muse dictate. If you want to do Nekken or Ruchie, then go right on ahead... as long as it's well-written and you believe in it there'll be an audience out there somewhere for it.

seriously.

[MrDrP]

Sorry, friend, but Kim wore a Shego outift exactly once, and that was in Twin Factor when she was under mind control. We can assume that Drakken had her don the suit, thinking it was appropriate henchwoman's attire.

Maybe it was just me, but I think that suit looks a whole lot better on Shego than on Kim. >.> The green/black combination just matched Shego because of her eye and hair color, but with Kim, IMO, the green/black of the suit with Kim's red hair just clashed. I mean, it wasn't horribly wrong, but I just didn't think it complimented her well. Eh, I still digress.

Oh, yes. That's Shego's signature outfit. Though there was something very funny about seeing Kim wearing it!

But, more back on topic:

Can we agree that there is no intended Kigo subtext in the actual KP show, but with enough time and catalysts and a good work-up, the two characters could possibly (no pun intended) hook up in the fanfiction world?

There is definitely no KIGO subtext in the show.

I write fanfics for two reasons: I enjoy the KP universe, and I'm using this milieu to develop my skills as a writer. It was due to the latter that I recently wrote a Ned/Kim pairing (it was a nightmare, but still it was there) and last year wrote an angst piece. I wanted to try something different.

I just don't buy the idea of Kim liking girls, let alone Shego. I don't think sexuality is that fungible and Kim's given no indications that she's going to be interested in anything other than boys for the rest of her life. My hope is that boy remains Ron, but who knows? Then, even if Kim's sexuality were to change, there's the problem of Shego's evil nature, which I just don't see changing sufficiently to allow for a relationship.

I also see Shego as hetero. But as I've been thinking about this, I've noticed the screenshots KIGO people have as their avatars. Kim NEVER looks happy about being held or in contact with Shego (and that locker shot of Shego doesn't cut it as a clue). But Shego sometimes has that predator's smile, that could make one wonder. Would Shego maybe like a roll in the hay with her foe? Maybe have a little fun and screw up Kimmie's life all at the same time? I don't know. Perhaps she does. And perhaps there remains an innate humanity that would prevent Shego from acting on that desire. Anyway, I've been fooling around with a one-shot on the topic. Maybe you KIGO fans could tell me if you'd be interested in seeing it posted here.

Which then leads to another question, would Kigo fanfiction with such a good solid foundation (we've spent about 6 pages discussing plausible setups, so any of those) totally violate canon? Or maybe just stretch it a bit? If set far enough in the future, still remain in the realms of canon? What exactly IS canon? Just the show itself? I mean, in all fanfic stories, we all have to make SOME guesses and assumptions of material not explicitly mentioned in the show itself? Canon? Mostly canon?

You know, at the end of the day, I think all of the ambitious stories, whether KIGO, K/R, RonBon, even no pairing, wind up stretching canon to some degree. As writers, we're all interpreting a series of 22 minute episodes which do not fit together seemlessly, and making assumptions, beginning with Mrs. Dr. P.'s first and maiden names!

Ahh, more questions than I can answer.

Apologies for continually re-hashing this thread, but I'm really enjoying chatting with everyone, and already, I know of several ways I could have rewritten or reworked my original and first Kigo story, and now have several ideas of what I would like to do in the future to improve the...ahh, believe-ability (coinage, anyone?) of a Kigo-based story occuring in the KP universe. So, thank you again.

While I may not care for KIGO or buy the premise, I'm enjoying this thread, too. (Heck, I know there are people out there who think Kim/Ron, which I've come to love, is, well, gorchy!) It's been stimulating, and largely very, very civil. The KP universe is big enough for us all. Well, maybe for most of us. I'm not sure about the Nekkenites ...

[surforst]

mrdrp said:

I also see Shego as hetero. But as I've been thinking about this, I've noticed the screenshots KIGO people have as their avatars. Kim NEVER looks happy about being held or in contact with Shego (and that locker shot of Shego doesn't cut it as a clue). But Shego sometimes has that predator's smile, that could make one wonder. Would Shego maybe like a roll in the hay with her foe? Maybe have a little fun and screw up Kimmie's life all at the same time? I don't know. Perhaps she does. And perhaps there remains an innate humanity that would prevent Shego from acting on that desire. Anyway, I've been fooling around with a one-shot on the topic. Maybe you KIGO fans could tell me if you'd be interested in seeing it posted here.

You know now that you mention it I kind of see the same thing too. I don't think Shego is anything but straight personally but I could see her doing it just to screw with poor Kimmie. Now I finally though have a reason why my one OC character hates Shego was an almost crazed passion. It also give me an idea for a story though no worries on Shego actually accomplishing anything evil. Got to keep it at FF.net levels after all besides Surforst doesn't want to write what could happen anyway.

As for issues of Cannon I say Kigo is impossible. Then again Kim and Ron being in giant robots fighting on opposite sides of a war is not cannon either so I'm no one to talk. Write what you want though having Kim as Shego pet is probably going a little too far. Then again I don't read those stories anyway so maybe the author handled it well. I'll never know nor do I intend to ever know. ;D

[apoptosis]

mrdrp said:

I just don't buy the idea of Kim liking girls, let alone Shego. I don't think sexuality is that fungible and Kim's given no indications that she's going to be interested in anything other than boys for the rest of her life. My hope is that boy remains Ron, but who knows? Then, even if Kim's sexuality were to change, there's the problem of Shego's evil nature, which I just don't see changing sufficiently to allow for a relationship.

I also see Shego as hetero. But as I've been thinking about this, I've noticed the screenshots KIGO people have as their avatars. Kim NEVER looks happy about being held or in contact with Shego (and that locker shot of Shego doesn't cut it as a clue). But Shego sometimes has that predator's smile, that could make one wonder. Would Shego maybe like a roll in the hay with her foe? Maybe have a little fun and screw up Kimmie's life all at the same time? I don't know. Perhaps she does. And perhaps there remains an innate humanity that would prevent Shego from acting on that desire. Anyway, I've been fooling around with a one-shot on the topic. Maybe you KIGO fans could tell me if you'd be interested in seeing it posted here.

Well, as for Kim and Shego's sexuality, I usually go by the fact that although we've only seen Kim and Shego interested in boys, we have never seen any evidence that they totally no-questions-asked aren't interested in girls. As in, we've never seen both of them explicitly say they would never date a girl, or were violently opposed to the idea, or gays/lesbians in general. I would guess that for PC's sake, if a gay character were to appear on the show (very unlikely though), there wouldn't be ANY KP characters (Kim, Ron, Monique, Rufus, Shego, etc) disgusted or opposed to the idea, as that could potentially set a bad precedent for the young impressionable audiences out there. Or, if there was a character not liking the idea, that character would be made to set an example of how NOT to act in response to alternative forms of sexuality - ya know, promoting the tolerance and all.

As I see it, right NOW (current time setting of the series), Kim and Shego are by and large straight. There may be some unrealized or unconscious or hidden bi-curiosity, but we (the viewers) are given no indication of any sentiments being present, thus for all intents and purposes, they don't exist. In several years; however, when Kim is at college, she may become curious and explore. And heck, she might like it. From personal experience, college is a wonderful time to "come out" and much better than high school. Also from personal experiences, I know several people who had suppressed same-sex feelings until their college years, and now they are happily involved in same-sex partners, despite having only dated opposite-sex partners in high school and previous.

If I were Kim and I thought I might some gay leanings, I wouldn't want to come out in high school. Not only is high school a stressful time as it is (grades, extracurriculars, saving the world, applying to college), but there is the lovely Bonnie to tangle with. Bonnie, IMO, doesn't seem like the most tolerant of people, and if Kim were to one day announce she was bi, I can definitely imagine Bonnie laughing, spreading the information around the school, and even try to kick Kim off the cheerleading squad, declaring that Kim might try to hit on the other cheerleaders. Kim is a strong independent woman, but I think there has been more than enough evidence that she still worries about her social reputation, and attempts to maintain it.

If Kim were in college, a couple years in the future, could I see her experimenting, or even liking it [same sex relationships]? Yes, I can. Actually, I would see Shego as more opposed to gay relationships than Kim would ever be, if we had to compare the two. But could I also see Shego wanting to experiment? Yes, she seems like the liberal type to me, and might try it just to flout the norm and authority, and then OMG enjoy it. And yes, I could see them experimenting with each other, and perhaps liking it. How/why/where/when would this happen? Well, that's the challenge to the author to wrestle with.

I can definitely see a very dark Kigo story where Shego seduces Kim (and gets away with it) to throw our favorite cheerleader for a spin, and on Shego's part, no attraction/emotion is felt towards Kim - the whole charade was to make Kim's life that much more difficult. I've been toying to write one of those for the sake of it, but if you want to post yours, power to you! Good writing is good writing!

Though I still doubt that Shego and Kim really hate each other (hate is such a strong strong word), and that Shego really is truly purely evil, but perhaps that is a discussion for another thread?

I'm not sure about the Nekkenites ...

Do I even want to know?

[MrDrP]

Well, as for Kim and Shego's sexuality, I usually go by the fact that although we've only seen Kim and Shego interested in boys, we have never seen any evidence that they totally no-questions-asked aren't interested in girls. As in, we've never seen both of them explicitly say they would never date a girl, or were violently opposed to the idea, or gays/lesbians in general. I would guess that for PC's sake, if a gay character were to appear on the show (very unlikely though), there wouldn't be ANY KP characters (Kim, Ron, Monique, Rufus, Shego, etc) disgusted or opposed to the idea, as that could potentially set a bad precedent for the young impressionable audiences out there. Or, if there was a character not liking the idea, that character would be made to set an example of how NOT to act in response to alternative forms of sexuality - ya know, promoting the tolerance and all.

Ah, and we've never seen ANY evidence that either of them might like girls. I personally don't feel a need for either of them to say point blank "I don't like girls" to believe they don't, especially Kim, who very clearly likes boys, even if she's shy around them.

I'd be perfectly happy to have Disney introduce new characters who were gay, maybe even a couple in KP. Ain't gonna happen, but that would be refreshing.

As I see it, right NOW (current time setting of the series), Kim and Shego are by and large straight. There may be some unrealized or unconscious or hidden bi-curiosity, but we (the viewers) are given no indication of any sentiments being present, thus for all intents and purposes, they don't exist. In several years; however, when Kim is at college, she may become curious and explore. And heck, she might like it. From personal experience, college is a wonderful time to "come out" and much better than high school. Also from personal experiences, I know several people who had suppressed same-sex feelings until their college years, and now they are happily involved in same-sex partners, despite having only dated opposite-sex partners in high school and previous.

I think I see some wishful thinking here about Kim. The Kim you're describing seems to be more KP-inspired than actual KP.

There's no evidence of bi-curiosity on Kim's part, and, to be honest, I don't see any on Shego's part, either.

Yes, Kim could experiment with her sexuality in college. She could also try drugs and start drinking. I don't see any of those things happening. My experience at college was that most (but not all) people are pretty sure about their sexuality when they come in and when they leave. Same's been true with grad school.

No argument, though, that college is a much better place for someone to come out than high school.

If I were Kim and I thought I might some gay leanings, I wouldn't want to come out in high school. Not only is high school a stressful time as it is (grades, extracurriculars, saving the world, applying to college), but there is the lovely Bonnie to tangle with. Bonnie, IMO, doesn't seem like the most tolerant of people, and if Kim were to one day announce she was bi, I can definitely imagine Bonnie laughing, spreading the information around the school, and even try to kick Kim off the cheerleading squad, declaring that Kim might try to hit on the other cheerleaders. Kim is a strong independent woman, but I think there has been more than enough evidence that she still worries about her social reputation, and attempts to maintain it.

Agreed. Bonnie would be awful in that situation.

If Kim were in college, a couple years in the future, could I see her experimenting, or even liking it [same sex relationships]? Yes, I can. Actually, I would see Shego as more opposed to gay relationships than Kim would ever be, if we had to compare the two. But could I also see Shego wanting to experiment? Yes, she seems like the liberal type to me, and might try it just to flout the norm and authority, and then OMG enjoy it. And yes, I could see them experimenting with each other, and perhaps liking it. How/why/where/when would this happen? Well, that's the challenge to the author to wrestle with.

Again, I see more wishful thinking here about KP than the KP we actually know and believe we can project into the future from the show. I really can't see Kim experimenting that way; that just doesn't strike me as being in character. (I'm not saying she won't be adventurous with someone she loves; I just see that person being a guy). I do see Kim being more accepting of gay people than Shego, however (even if Shego has gay tendencies, I would see her being the kind of person who lashes out at gays).

I can definitely see a very dark Kigo story where Shego seduces Kim (and gets away with it) to throw our favorite cheerleader for a spin, and on Shego's part, no attraction/emotion is felt towards Kim - the whole charade was to make Kim's life that much more difficult. I've been toying to write one of those for the sake of it, but if you want to post yours, power to you! Good writing is good writing!

Well, it would be a little different than that, since Shego would not be able to seduce Kim, since I don't see Kim being amenable to those kind of advances. I just don't see Kim going that way. The story would be more of an opportunity to explore Shego (and probably piss off my fans who will want to know why I'm not giving them the K/R stuff they've come to expect!). But, why say more, I'll write and see what you all have to say!

Though I still doubt that Shego and Kim really hate each other (hate is such a strong strong word), and that Shego really is truly purely evil, but perhaps that is a discussion for another thread?

This probably is a discussion for another thread. Though we do know that at the end of StD Kim says she hates Shego, and after what KP's been put through, that's not an unreasonable sentiment; I don't think what Kim said was hyperbole. And, we know how many times Shego's tried to off KP.

I'm not sure about the Nekkenites ...

Do I even want to know?

This is Zaratan's fault. He wrote the first and, it must be hoped, last Ned/Drakken story.

BTW, I suspect by now I'm sounding a bit intransigent on this whole topic, but this is how I feel. I've actually watched episodes with an eye to seeing if this whole KIGO thing could be made plausible to me and must say I'm still wholly unconvinced.

I am grateful, though, that this seems to be place where people can disagree on an issue and still have a respectful, interesting, and stimulating conversation.

I'll confess -- I feel fortunate. We K/R fans had season 3 set things up for us and will get to continue to see K/R for at least some portion of season 4 (and hopefully for all of it!). All you KIGO fans have is the power of imagination. Which ain't a bad thing at the end of the day if you're an author.

I guess I'll never be convinced, but I still wish you well. If KIGO's going to written, it's good to see it being handled intelligently and thoughtfully.

[zaratan]

How many times do I have to say this... I was sick! I had a high fever, and Aers kept asking and pleading...

Though it is cool to be the creater of a pairing. Nekken... you know, that gives me an... okaaayy... stepping AWAY from the keyboard now...

mattb put out a new smuff... I'll be back!

[cloudmonet]

I'd be perfectly happy to have Disney introduce new characters who were gay, maybe even a couple in KP. Ain't gonna happen, but that would be refreshing.

Already has happened, I think, though not the couple part:
Guy, Larsen, and Scorn, the "Evil Eye for the Bad Guy" dudes.
Jack Hench's effeminate male receptionist.
Possibly Bernice, the pilot with the art colony from "Bueno Nacho" and "Team Impossible."

[surforst]

zaratan said:

How many times do I have to say this... I was sick! I had a high fever, and Aers kept asking and pleading...

Though it is cool to be the creater of a pairing. Nekken... you know, that gives me an... okaaayy... stepping AWAY from the keyboard now...

mattb put out a new smuff... I'll be back!

Now let's review what Surforst wrote when he got sick. Compare this to yours. What does that tell you?

I've noticed most authors who get sick don't tend to write Nekken after all. I don't think you can chalk this one up to fever Zartan.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

cloudmonet said:

I'd be perfectly happy to have Disney introduce new characters who were gay, maybe even a couple in KP. Ain't gonna happen, but that would be refreshing.

Already has happened, I think, though not the couple part:
Guy, Larsen, and Scorn, the "Evil Eye for the Bad Guy" dudes.
Jack Hench's effeminate male receptionist.
Possibly Bernice, the pilot with the art colony from "Bueno Nacho" and "Team Impossible."

Falsetto Jones did seem rather... feminine from my POV.

;D

[MrDrP]

I was thinking a real character, not some stereotype like the Evil Eye guys ...

[allaine]

I think a problem with this discussion, and a source of considerable frustration for the Kigo folks, is the constraints of the show as posed by Disney.

Are Kim/Ron/Shego/Drakken/other main characters on the show gay? No. Is there a hint of them being gay? No. Why? Because the writers/producers never conceived of them as being gay. Why? Because it's a kids' show for Disney Afternoon television, and Disney isn't going to invite that kind of controversy by doing that kind of show. Heck, it doesn't want its cartoon characters to have anything close to sex lives to begin with. These are high schoolers, and regardless of the reality of American schools today, neither Disney nor parents want animated shows discussing sex (beyond puppy love and crushes) and teenagers.

So I think part of the situation is that Kigo readers tend to inject Kim and Shego into the real world, where sexual orientation is determined by genes and whatever else, not by corporate policies. But to do so means ignoring canon. They're not gay in the show. They show no interest in the same sex in the show. But neither are they ALLOWED to. In a way, it's almost like they've been programmed with certain restrictions. "Disney decrees that thou shalt not be interested in the same sex. And so shalt it be."

Kim could graduate, go to college, experiment - many kids do. She could go to a kegger, she could take up smoking (and then decide she doesn't like it), she could have a one-night stand with a boy, she could - but she won't. Why? Because she's the Disney heroine, she's idealized to a degree, she's not entirely realistic, and because Kim Possible wouldn't do that. (Which means all you kids at home shouldn't either.) You could argue that she's never shown an interest in sex. Does that mean she's going to die a virgin?

I'm not suggesting that I WANT Kim Possible to try these things. I don't smoke or drink or engage in casual sex. But I want Kim to have the freedom to CHOOSE to try or not try whatever she wants, and I think if you remain with canon and the restrictions imposed on canon by what Disney and the writers are trying/are allowed to do, she's deprived of some of that freedom to be who she wants to be.

I just think that the debate is hobbled by Disney's regulations. (Don't get me wrong - I realize the writers themselves wanted to create an animated show for kids of a certain age, and they're not exactly being thwarted from creating their true designs by Disney overlords.) If this was a prime-time show with RL actors marketed to an adult audience, the rules would be different. (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Once and Again, are I think two good examples of prime-time dramas with girls who seemed pretty darn straight for a season or three, only to become involved with other girls.)

But that's what happens when you have adults watching kids' shows, I guess ;D

Sincerely, Allaine

[Scoutcraft Piratess]

I think too many of us are demanding that this come into the show. There is a fine line between the show and fanfiction. Fanfiction goes in many different directions, obviously, but it still has no affect on the show's reality.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

well... let's face it, the House of Mouse reality isn't really something that works in our world.

Middleton High has no drug problem, no gang violence, no underage drinking, no one even jaywalks in Middleton from what we're seeing...

and no one uses guns. I think the cops carry them, but considering they're about as useless as those in Sunnydale I doubt anyone calls the cops for anything other than a cat stuck in a tree... oh, wait - they call Kim instead.



but it's a nice, happy place for those of us who get tired of this world... thank God it's there!

[The Last Son of 84]

Indeed. I have no interest in seeing the actual KP world get grim 'n' gritty, turn dark and all angsty.

I don't mind it in fanfics, heck, a good portion of my stuff does merge the KP 'verse with a little more real world stuff to it, but at least in fanfics it seems to work and not seem so dang out of place. If StD is any indication of the what the show would be like if it were darkened up as it were... I never, EVER want to see go down that path. One angst-filled movie is more than enough, thank you very much.

[cloudmonet]

Maybe you should try watching it again? Most of us think it was wonderful. Why in the world does So the Drama bother you so much? Almost any other action/adventure/romance has much more disturbing stuff. I just don't get it.

[allaine]

I didn't think of StD as an especially dark movie. Actually, I thought SiT was darker, if only because of "Shegoton".

That being said, while I liked StD and own a copy on DVD, I still prefer SiT. Part of that isn't StD's fault. One nice thing about SiT is that it mixes Duff and Monty in with Drakken and Shego - something for everyone, really.

On the other hand, I had serious problems with parts of StD. I didn't like how Bonnie was reduced back to being a one-dimensional character less than a season after Bonding. Bonding makes her more than just "that girl who's always sniping at Kim", and then StD - come on, she just saved the world, could you stop yourself from taunting her the minute she walks through the fricking door?! I thought the romantic climax between Kim and Ron was rushed. I also thought the central point to the storyline - that Dr. Drakken actually came up with a plan that was not only less-than-insane, but came extremely close to fruition - was a bit ironic considering SiT argued that Shego was a lot more likely to take over the world than Drakken ever would.

I don't like the concept of Kim having a "power suit". The implication that suddenly Kim needs to have this to win - exactly when did she have this crisis of confidence? If she was going up against a foe of appreciably greater power than usual, then maybe I could see it. But she's basically fighting the same Shego she always has.

And I've already mentioned my issues with the careless way they handled the ultimate scene between Kim and Shego.

Overall I liked it, but one reason I'm glad about Season 4 is that we could now have a more deserving way to end the show.

Sincerely, Allaine

[The Last Son of 84]

Pretty much allaine summed up my major beefs with parts of the movie. Especially the part about Season 4.

cloudmonet said:

Maybe you should try watching it again?

Oh no. I am many things, but a masochist is not one of them.

cloudmonet said:

Maybe you should try watching it again? Most of us think it was wonderful. Why in the world does So the Drama bother you so much? Almost any other action/adventure/romance has much more disturbing stuff. I just don't get it.

Do I mind it in, say 007? Nope. But the KP 'verse... going from the world presented in the actual show and then jumping to that abomination of a movie... ugh.

At least ASiT did a decent job of keeping the KP feel going for it, if only during Parts 1 and 2. StD on the other hand...

[cloudmonet]

I guess we'll have to agree that we don't understand each other's viewpoints, last son of 84. That movie did a great deal to cheer me in 2005, much more than anything else I've experienced in a long time, and I've watched it at least 40 times. Only the unacknowledged (later) robot damage to the Possible house made it less than perfect.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

I don't know if you can really compare the two movies on the same level - ASiT was created to fill three episode slots and plotted that way while StD was meant to be the series finale and pitched as the first full-length animated Disney movie and all that...

I did like seeing more villains in ASiT, but I'll confess that I usually fastforward through the sad stuff and get to the action - Shegoton was an interesting view into what Shego could be if she really followed her heart, as it were, and went totally evil. For me, it points out that her being with Drakken is actually what's keeping the world safer in the long run and without Kim/Ron to balance them out Drakken does fall away to the sidekick role.

StD's only intention, I believe, was to finish the series off with a definitive end to the entire Ron-as-sidekick subplot and the romantic aspect of the K/R relationship. Even so, I find the Possible Christmas show to be more shippy in some ways with Kim's reaction to "losing" Ron and finding the poor boy again in the snow. Heck, even Shego softens up long enough to save Drakken!

so I really don't think you can compare the two, given that they had two different audiences and goals - even if they were both KP-based.

*wanders off again*

[surforst]

Lol talk about topic changes. Anyway I though StD was a good movie. Nice action, Shego got kicked into a radio tower, and K/R happens in the end. Nice little movie despite the flaws. Besides I like the concept of a power suit now all Kim needs is a really big club. I don't know why but she just does.