Making Kigo work

[allaine]

cloudmonet said:

"So the Drama" has got to be singularly hard for Kim/Shego shippers to take, because the hatred between Kim and Shego is whipped up to I'm-gonna-wound-you fury, while Kim and Ron...

I know there were some Kigo fans who were really bothered by the extra violence of their fights. I didn't take it too personally myself. I was more bothered by the fact that it was not I'm-gonna-WOUND-you fury.

I mean, I'm sorry, but if you kick someone so hard that they fly off the roof of a tower that's several stories high, then that would be considered "I hope you die".

And if you kick someone into the middle of a metal installation that's ALSO several stories high, and they crash through the outer wall so that they're electrocuted (during a downpour no less!), and THEN the entire thing crumbles on top of them, dozens of feet to the ground with them still inside it, that would be considered "I hope you suffer before you die".

And when you have that look on your face when it's all over, you're either completely unaware of the possible consequences (unlikely for Kim), or you have no regrets about what you've done.

As I said, this was Disney, and death wasn't going to happen. But in reality, no matter how angry Kim was, she was acting (at best) with complete and reckless disregard for another human life, and I was appalled by this. I would have reacted the same way if it had been Drakken or Monty.

Sincerely, Allaine

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

I was a bit shocked as well with the intensity of the final "kick" off the roof into the tower... it seemed, well... superfluous, considering that Kim had already won. As well, I've never figured out exactly how Shego's power works, but the fact that she didn't "flame on" when she confronted Kim the last time would indicate that she was either tired, injured, or unable to produce her trademark power. Either or all of which would make her much less of a danger to Kim. And The Big Plan had been foiled, so what was the point to destroying the tower in the first place? Even Drakken *only* got off with an implied threat of a thrashing from Ron.

I did find the level of anger disturbing on a personal level - I mean, it's one thing to kick Shego around (or any other villain), another to literally bring a tower down on them. Obviously invulnerability is another Team Go power that Shego's got, or we'd be looking at attempted murder charges for Kim, at least.

not cool, Kim. Not cool.

[thelastsonof84]

Kim's out-of-character insanity towards the very end there is certainly another factor in my dislike of the movie. So bad in fact that I'd rather catch an actual STD before watching StD a second time.

I swear, there wasn't even any point in adding that scene into the movie. Now, maybe if Season 4 makes something of that scene, has Kim slowly becoming more and more over-the-top and violent with her villains, falling down the same path Shego probably did back in Go City, only for her friends and family to pull her back (thus giving Season 4 a character arc much like Season 3 had the Kim/Ron relationship) then it wouldn't be a pointless add-on to the movie. But considering, at the time, StD was meant to be the end... it was, much like that ridiculous blue and white costume, completely and uttelry useless.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

I think that'd be a little too dark for Disney, although great fodder for fanfiction.

I'm just confused as to why it had to be written that way - kicking up the fight scenes a notch wasn't too bad, since the battle suit allowed them to get way more intense without Shego basically taking Kim apart but the last bit with the tower smacked a bit too much of "I am woman, hear me roar!"

I read somewhere (maybe here?) that it's more of a growing experience for Kim, yatta yatta yatta into womanhood and all, but I'd love to hear the writers' POV on it. If only to have them tell us that we analyse way too much and need to drink more coco-moo.

[cloudmonet]

Kim's out-of-character insanity towards the very end there is certainly another factor in my dislike of the movie. So bad in fact that I'd rather catch an actual STD before watching StD a second time.

Gee, I think I've watched So the Drama, let me guess, about 50 times! I watched it about once a day for several weeks in April and May. I think last watched it sometime in December. I'm starting to get the urge to see it again.

Kim's not really out of character here. She lost it because of the way the villains messed with her personal life. You don't kidnap Kim's father and try to kill him with a giant cephalopod, you don't send chemical robots to her school to betray her trust, you don't trash her house with cybertronic robots, and you don't gouge a big nasty wound in her shoulder. Come on, this time Drakken and Shego really made it personal, and much nastier than usual. I wouldn't expect her to bust them with her usual sense of humor.

She reacted in a similar was to Senor Senior Senior in Triple S after he tried to crush her with a big concrete culvert. She doesn't take it personally when the villains try to kill her in the heat of conflict, but she was just walking around at the X-games when Senior attempted a premptive strike. Not a good idea. She was relentless after that, not about to listen to Senior's protests that he was just stealing back his own money.

Is this a professional attitude to take? No. Is it understandable? Yes. Criminals who kill or damage cops can expect extra rough treatment.

Kim's a hero, but she's human, and she's a young woman. If you're her enemy, you don't want to make it personal. That's when you really get in trouble.

I was more bothered by the fact that it was not I'm-gonna-WOUND-you fury.

Fine, it did look like Shego and Kim were trying to kill each other. Over the course of the show, Shego's initial onslaughts have varied in how potentially lethal or even dangerous they looked, but they're more intense than normal in So the Drama, as if Shego took Drakken's "You have failed me for the last time" remark to heart, and gave it her all.

But that only makes my point even stronger, that the last time we saw Kim and Shego, they were farther away from being lovers than ever. Yeah, in the course of the incredibly violent Bermuda Triangle fight, their wrestling pressed their crotches together, but then Kim folded her legs and somehow kicked Shego in the stomach--with high heels! Ow!--to hurl her across the room into the wall. This is subtext? You can't even be S&M and carry on this way!

But despite all this, in my stories set 2 1/2 to 3 years after So the Drama, I've got Kim and Shego becoming friends. How? Shego's on the lam from a life sentence conviction, pregnant, and only able to use a limited amount of her power, and her biggest fear is being captured and losing the baby. Shego proves herself by helping Kim, Ron, Yori, and Hirotaka take out some terrorists with an invisible plane and a doomsday bomb.

If I can make them friends, you guys can make them lovers, but you need years and major life changes to do it. You've got the germ of a darker idea if you think Kim's treatment of Shego in So the Drama is the beginning of Kim going evil, though how exactly you'd work your way from that to Kim and Shego being evil lovers, I don't know.

[allaine]

cloudmonet said:

I was more bothered by the fact that it was not I'm-gonna-WOUND-you fury.

Fine, it did look like Shego and Kim were trying to kill each other. Over the course of the show, Shego's initial onslaughts have varied in how potentially lethal or even dangerous they looked, but they're more intense than normal in So the Drama, as if Shego took Drakken's "You have failed me for the last time" remark to heart, and gave it her all.

But that only makes my point even stronger, that the last time we saw Kim and Shego, they were farther away from being lovers than ever. Yeah, in the course of the incredibly violent Bermuda Triangle fight, their wrestling pressed their crotches together, but then Kim folded her legs and somehow kicked Shego in the stomach--with high heels! Ow!--to hurl her across the room into the wall. This is subtext? You can't even be S&M and carry on this way!

At this point I think we're trying to make two different points. Your argument is that the ultimate scene between them shows how far apart the two really are. My argument (basically a digression) is that no matter how angry Kim was at the time, her actions and her subsequent lack of remorse were very out of character.

(I think the fact that Shego lived without needing even medical treatment, judging by the end - a less-than-credible outcome - let Kim get away with overlooking what she proved capable of doing.)

Sincerely, Allaine

[apoptosis]

I thought Kim was very out of character at the end of StD, personally.

Yes, it is normal that Kim would react (heck, I'm usually a die-hard pacifist, but even *I* would react in a fit of emotion if people did to me as the villians had done to Kim and her family), but I would have thought that Kim would have been remorseful after - as Allaine has pointed out. Even not necessarily about kicking Shego, but about her behavior in general. If she had kicked Duff, or SSS, or SSJ, or Drakken like that, I still would have been shocked.

It wasn't necessarily the kick that bothered me (a very acceptable reaction, especially considering how badly she had been betrayed), but the pleased expression on her face after. And even that expression is understandable if there were a scene later on of Kim regretting her action.

But the expression on its own - it is eerily like Shego. Just replace Kim's suit with Shego's suit, and change the hair color to black, and wham! you've got Shego.

My very-biased opinion of the kick is that the show's admin thought the Kigo phenomenon was getting out of hand, and they wanted to crush it, knowing (at the time) that the movie was the last KP thing aired. (J/K)

Meh, that's my two cents.

[Imperial General Someguy]

Well, this is coming from a conservative republican-biased mind, but Kigo just can't work. At least not in any ways my mind come up with,but meh, It may just be that I'm overtly logical about things.

[Imperial General Someguy]

cloudmonet said:

Kim didn't settle for Ron. She embraced him wholeheartedly. This isn't the story of a girl accepting her childhood friend as second best when her dreamboat turned out to be a fake filled with green goop. This is the story of how she realized said childhood friend really was the man she was looking for.

"So the Drama" has got to be singularly hard for Kim/Shego shippers to take, because the hatred between Kim and Shego is whipped up to I'm-gonna-wound-you fury, while Kim and Ron...

I really hope it works out well for Kim and Ron, and do believe they've got a lot going in their favor. But if Ron really changed for some reason-- in the scenario I proposed above Ron loses his sense of humor and becomes a really hardnosed cop. If what Kim loves about Ron isn't there anymore, dissention and breakup could ensue. I'd say it's ferociously unlikely, given how extremely well Kim and Ron know each other, but it is possible, and gives you a route to a bisexual/lesbian Kim that doesn't deny or refute what we see in the show.

Of course, the more seasons of Kim in which we see her happy together with Ron, the less likely a Kim/Ron breakup becomes. Marriages of childhood sweethearts (and it's likely they'll later look back at it this way, whatever their actual jargon was at the time) are rare in today's fleeting world, but when they do happen tend to be way more stable and durable than the average marriage.

Make Kim 25, Shego 30, and Ron drifting out of character as he ages, and I might believe Kim/Shego could happen, based on the present sitch. After season 4, it may or may not still seem possible.

Sorry to double post, but all I can say is... Amen

[cloudmonet]

I thought Kim was very out of character at the end of StD, personally.

I'm gonna revisit this point made by Apoptosis and Allaine, just because I have more thoughts about it, just about the kick, Kim's grim face, and lack of remorse.

You seem to be to some extent granting my point about Kim's enemies making it personal driving her to vindictiveness and rage. The punch, delivered with fists moving so fast it looks like Kim has about nine of them, could be excused as a response to the clawing wound (now why'd Shego do that), and anyway, Kim might not know just what a wallop her supersuit enhanced fist could deliver.

The kick's different. The battlesuit's not glowing anymore, supposedly not working after Erik short-circuited it, and yet the kick seems enhanced.

I'm more disturbed by the death of Erik. Yeah, Drakken or his staff scientists created him, but he shows every sign of sentience, and a really nasty rivalry with Ron on the rooftop. Either Erik is sentient, or Drakken did a hell of a job programming his syntho-brain. Yet Kim and Ron are just sitting there smiling, knowing one little bite from Rufus will cause Erik's death.

But this stuff happens when you have enemies, when you're a fighter, even if you're fighting for what's good. For this movie, the arch foe stuff went beyond James Bond spoofing to something genuine. Drakken's plan really is diabolical. He failed because he took Kim prisoner instead of killing her, but why? Because he wanted her to live to see his triumph and rub her face in it and watch her suffer. And it might have worked if he hadn't underestimated Ron.

Drakken never understood Ron's most important role. It's not that Ron's such a great fighter. He does his best, and sometimes makes a real contribution to the victory this way, but more than anything else, Ron's real purpose is to be Kim's cheerleader. She's up there on the catwalk fighting Shego, and Ron's cheering for her. If you want Kim to stay despondant, don't lock her up with Ron.

I'll digress for just a moment and ask you Kim/Shego shippers if you think Shego could or would ever love anyone enough to do what Ron does for Kim. You've gotta change Kim so she doesn't need it (Ron's spoiled her) or give Shego way more empathy.

Last time Kim sees her, Shego's alive, a little bloody, bruised, and disheveled, but nothing for a fighter to feel remorseful about. If Kim had put her in a wheelchair, that'd be a different story. This isn't the same sort of relationship we see between Kim/Ron and Shego/Drakken in, say, "Dimension Twist" or "Rappin Drakken." This is real hatred.

I do understand that fierce look in Kim's eyes.

[RavenStar]

But sometimes hatred develops as a defensive response when someone is afraid to accept how they feel about a particular person.

[cloudmonet]

Okay, this does happen in fictional works to the point of being a cliche. But where's the notion come from? I'm trying to imagine myself in bed with various people I've hated in my life. Nope, nope, nope. And okay, there's a woman I went to bed with but developed hatred for later, and the decision is-- still nope, not, never again. Woot! Woot! Stupid idea alert!

Other people may be less sensible about this than me.

[RavenStar]

For whatever reason, sometimes one can't accept their true feelings about someone, so in order to avoid having to think about those feelings whenever they see the person, a natural escape response is for them to do everything they can to push the person the furthest away from them possible. It doesn't just happen ad nauseum in fanfics simply because it's a cliche - it's quite prevalent in real life, too. So much so a fable was written about it a long time ago. It's just another weird way that the human mind works sometimes.

[Imperial General Someguy]

True, but I think it's kinda obvious that this is real hatred. Total, cold-blooded-quite-frankley-I-wouldn't-care-if-you-die hatred. I personally don't think that it's covering up any sub-conciouses or conciouses feelings for Shego. And on top of that, Kigo is like a, 20 gazillion km stretch after StD.

'Course, all of this is moot point. Nothing I say is going to change your mind, and nothing I say is going to change your mind. That's just the way the world works.

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

I'm not sure really where the line got crossed for Shego from just dislike to hate, then...

when we first meet Shego she's working for Drakken, as she always is - she gets into a fight with Kim, holds her own etc, etc, etc. and then at the end the Big Plot fails and she escapes with Drakken - and this continues ad nauseum for quite a few eps.

in Team Go we see a softer side to Shego, but certainly nothing that would create her to "hate" Kim - they do have to work together to defeat Avarious, but then Shego allows the cane to fall back into Team Go's hands to help her brothers and escapes with Drakken. Again, no real hate, at least as far as I can see.

even in ASiT there's not really true hatred, just an urge to keep Kim out of the way. True, she goes to great lengths to figure it out and warp the timestream, but let's face it - she could have just as easily gone back and killed Dr. P while she was pregnant with Kim in the first place. Or nuked the daycare center. Or even smacked juv-Kim down while present-Kim was dealing with the stone monkey. That would have pretty well sealed the timeline right there.

in StD I don't really see hate between Kim and Shego other than Kim being majorly pissed off about being deceived - and, to be fair, it's DRAKKEN she should be more annoyed with than Shego. That's why the last kick into the tower seems out of character for me; it seems to be just a hissy fit from Kim that transfers into that one major kick.

I would have loved to have seen Ron opening up a can of whupass on Drakken, however.

[MrDrP]

I should be working on my thesis, but jumping into this thread looks like more fun.

First off, in the interests of full disclosure, I'm a K/R shipper and I don't care for KIGO as a pairing; it makes no sense to me. Also, to be very clear, I have no problems with same-sex couples. My problem is with this one in particular (or, to be honest Kim with a girl or Ron with a guy, since I see no evidence either of those, Zaratan's point aside).

I've looked at some KIGO stories and they seem to fall into two categories: prurient let's-get-the-girls-together trash and more complex, relationship-oriented stories. I don't have time for the former, but am willing to look at the latter. The KIGO authors who have been posting to this thread clearly fall into the latter camp, have put a lot of thought and care into their stories and care about the characters. That makes them okay in my book.

I'm not even sure what motivates KIGO authors. Why do they see these two particular characters coming together?

One argument I've heard is that Kim and Shego have repressed feelings for for each other during the time of the series. I don't buy that. Shego repeatedly tries to kill, not just hurt, but kill Kim (eg trying to crush her under a giant slab of concrete in Oct. 31, using the giant blender at Granny Crockett's factory or feeding Kim to the crocs at Drakken's Everglade's lair). I think Shego detests the perky cheerleader who repeatedly holds her own with her in combat. Those nicknames aren't pet names -- they're terms of derision.

I think Kim's feeling towards Shego through most of the series is one of wary professional respect. She knows Shego's good and she clearly doesn't like what Shego stands for. Kim doesn't have to detest Shego, because Kim regularly gets the better of her (either the gizmo or an actual capture). That said, the intensity with which Kim fights Shego indicates that Kim really doesn't care for her, either. Two years of battles leads to Kim's feelings about Shego reaching their climax at the end of StD when she says in no uncertain terms that she hates Shego, then kicks her into the tower.

A strong reaaction? Let's see. Shego is an evil woman who for the past two years of Kim's life has tried to hurt and kill her. She has just participated in a plot that put her father in serious, perhaps mortal, danger; wrecked her family's home; set her up with a synthetic boyfriend with the sole purpose of messing with her life, and, as a by-product, almost cost her her best friend. After that titanic struggle, I don't blame Kim, who is human, for doing what she did. And I just don't see Shego ever being in a position to gain Kim's friendship, let alone affection or trust. Maybe in forty years, like the old WWII vets who get together before they die. But not before then.

Now, to Zaratan's point. He does make credible points about sexuality earlier in this thread. However, they do not seem to explain Kim's behavior. She likes boys: Walter Nelson, Josh Mankey, Bobby Johnson, Hirotaka, Erik, ultimately Ron. Nothing out of the ordinary there for a teen-aged girl. Kim shows no interest in Shego because she's just not interested in girls.

The only plausible way I can see a KIGO story working is for the very long passage of time, the discovery of a sexual identity which isn't hinted at in the series, an ability to set past actions and feelings aside, and a major change of personality, which leads me to the following point:

I may have missed it, but why is it that it's always Shego who changes in stories? She becomes good and Kim comes around to being with her. Why not have Kim become evil? I see that as being no less plausible than Shego, who enjoys being evil, turning good.

The KIGO premise that would make sense to me, and I will confess this is disturbing, is the one where Shego, who is a predator, takes advantage of Kim. Either she full-bore takes advantage of her, or after some traumatic event in Kim's life, Shego seduces Kim -- and not just into an affair, but a life of crime. Shego may be an intriguiging character (I love writing her and she, along with Ron, gets some of the best lines on the show) but she is a bad woman and I don't see evidence of her reforming herself because I see no desire on her part to do that. Yes, she does the right thing on occasion (eg lets her brothers get their powers back and expresses her disgust at stealing Felix's wheelchair) but this is also the woman who happily did things from helping Drakken try to cover Wisconsin in magma to launch a world-wide assault with deadly cybertronic robots. Again, as I noted earlier, Shego enjoys being evil and has enjoyed being that way for some time.

The Kim/Ron relationship is an important factor, too in considering the possibility of KIGO. While the kiss at the end of StD seems rushed, it shouldn't be forgotten that Kim and Ron were shadowboxing around their relationship for all of season 3. That kiss wasn't out of the blue.

It obviously isn't clear where Kim and Ron will be relationship-wise at the end of season 4. Kim and Ron may be about to explore first love, but let's remember that they have a rather unique relationship: they've been freak-fighting together for years now, risking their lives together. (Consider this when looking for a romantic partner for Kim: Ron risks his safety for Kim. Shego tries to hurt her. Your Kim. Who would you choose?) That said, should Kim and Ron stop dating, I assume they'll still be best buds and the likelihood of them dating again in the future is infinitely more likely than Kim hooking up with Shego.

I suspect that some KIGO writers (not to mention anti K/R shippers in general) don't think that Ron is a suitable love interest for Kim, that he's not smart enough or good-looking enough, that in the real world, Ron would never have a chance. That essentially means that Kim, in choosing a romantic partner, should be shallow. Ron is actually a very good fit for Kim. Ron may not be the brightest bulb in the lamp, but he's loyal and patient, letting Kim drag him around the world and putting up with her quirks; they enjoy spending time together doing a wide variety of different things; and have been developing the basis for a solid romantic relationship for a long time. None of that means there had to be a sexual spark between Kim and Ron. But, and I say this having dated a number of people and having been married for a few years, physical appearance isn't the only thing that sparks sexual attraction. Shared danger can do that too. It wouldn't surprise me that after thinking about the number of whack things Ron's done for her on their missions, that Kim would begin to think that Ron had that special mojo. I sure don't see Josh Mankey going after a sumo ninja!

Further, Kim and Ron balance out each other. He helps her keep her feet on the ground and she pushes him to do more. Even if there were signs of mutual attraction between Kim and Shego, they'd be a terrible couple, exacerbating each other's bad tendencies.

My money is on Kim and Ron to go the distance (even if there are bumps in the road), and if that doesn't happen, for Kim and Ron to stay friends, with Kim finding a guy and Ron a woman and Shego still picking up the beefcakes we've seen her hanging with at different times during the show.

All of that said, I commend Allaine, Apoptosis, and RavenStar. Even if I don't find the KIGO premise plausible, they bring a lively, high-quality level of writing to the fan fic world and we could use more of that, regardless of the pairings (okay, I really don't need to see any Kim/Prince Wally stories).

[Aers (That Writer Chick)]

true - I can't think of any harder-working fanfiction writers than those who choose to write slash and make it work.

[Ron Spawn]

All these comments have me raising a brow.

If you want my honest opinion, I don't think Kim and Shego share any relationship (Well, not love-hate realtionship) in the show. Kim doesn't seem like the kind of person to ever hook up with someone... Evil... Nor does she seem like a lesbian to me. I really don't think they care what they do to eachother, just as long as either of them get their jobs done.

I don't see subtext screaming "THEY LOVE EACHOTHER"... but, that's just me.

Although, a fanfic of it would be interesting. That I could see happening.

But purposely in the show, I don't see it -Nod nod-

[apoptosis]

cloudmonet said:

Last time Kim sees her, Shego's alive, a little bloody, bruised, and disheveled, but nothing for a fighter to feel remorseful about. If Kim had put her in a wheelchair, that'd be a different story. This isn't the same sort of relationship we see between Kim/Ron and Shego/Drakken in, say, "Dimension Twist" or "Rappin Drakken." This is real hatred.

Well, I think Kim's triumphant face was IMMEDIATELY after she kicked Shego into the tower, even before she realized that Shego had survived. No? That's what's getting to me.

[apoptosis]

mrdrp said:

I should be working on my thesis, but jumping into this thread looks like more fun.

Oh, but KP message boards are just sooo much more fun anyways!

I've looked at some KIGO stories and they seem to fall into two categories: prurient let's-get-the-girls-together trash and more complex, relationship-oriented stories. I don't have time for the former, but am willing to look at the latter. The KIGO authors who have been posting to this thread clearly fall into the latter camp, have put a lot of thought and care into their stories and care about the characters. That makes them okay in my book.

Thank you.

I'm not even sure what motivates KIGO authors. Why do they see these two particular characters coming together?

I think it differs from author to author, but I think there's a few points, at least for me personally.

- the challenge of developing the two characters so that they care about each other; finding situations where they are friends or have to work together; finding catalysts for those situations; working those situations to completion - and being as IC as you can during the whole thing

- for some strange strange reason, I just see Kigo as appealing. I mean, why do you see K/R as your ship of choice? It is hard to explain, really. Could be I'm a lesbian, and am subconsciously annoyed at the lack of lesbian relationships portrayed on television, and here there are two strong athletic smart females, and by golly, they deserve each other...but...err...riiiight.

- there's always that good chick falling for bad guy cliche (or vice versa), but here, it is the good chick falling for bad chick. I think there's that appeal of the bad character reforming, and then you have this nice character arc going on. The reformation of the villian through love sappy? Absolutely. But, I think we humans (mostly) like to look for the good in things, even in other "evil" humans. Well, at least I do.

Bah...I could write this better if it weren't already 2 AM. Brain = fried.

All of that said, I commend Allaine, Apoptosis, and RavenStar. Even if I don't find the KIGO premise plausible, they bring a lively, high-quality level of writing to the fan fic world and we could use more of that, regardless of the pairings (okay, I really don't need to see any Kim/Prince Wally stories).

Thank you very much; my opinion is the same for the wonderful K/R writers (heck, any KP writer). Good writing is good writing!

Kim/Prince Wally? W.T.F?